There is a discussion going on in a group I belong to about the subconscious mind.

So I will post some of the questions here for the purpose of exploring.

Does the subconscious mind really exist?
How do you know the existence of the subconscious to be true? In other words,
how do we really know it exists?

Is it a separate entity within our brain?

Can we only change the subconscious mind through our present conscious?

Can you really change your subconscious thoughts that may keep you from achieving what you want without being aware of it?

If you can't change your subconscious without being aware of the thought first then why would the subconscious have any power of what we do?

If the subconscious has the power to direct our lives without us being aware of it can we change it without our awareness?

How much influence does it really have?
Does the subconscious mind hold the part of us that is the truth?

I will end it with my favorite line from Byron Katie - How do you know that to be true?

Any thoughts? I find the idea of the subconscious fascinating that goes much deeper than our present understanding.

Appreciation from the Heart,

Richard De Haven

I regard the subconscious as the automated thought you have. You can't consciously think about everything, it would take to much time.
So you have automated thoughts and habits. To change these thoughts takes a lot of time and effort.

for example:
My mother always used that detergined, so I'll buy that one.
That's a pretty lady, she must be nice.
Money has alway been a struggle, so getting money is hard.

The subconscious mind must be real. I think it's where I've been submerging myself in the 'Think about it' thread.

quote:

To change these thoughts takes a lot of time and effort.

Hi Liesbeth, I have a question for you.
How do you know that to be true?

I've seen thoughts change almost instantly without time or effort. It's even happened to me many times.

Hey Luv2Luv (I also love to love )

quote:

The subconscious mind must be real.

How do you know it to be real?

If it's based on simply faith then great.

I am not asking the questions just to be annoying. Just exploring.

Appreciation from the Heart,

Richard De Haven

quote:

Originally posted by Richard De Haven:

quote:

To change these thoughts takes a lot of time and effort.

Hi Liesbeth, I have a question for you.
How do you know that to be true?

It's an automated thought. (subconscious, you know).

quote:

I am not asking the questions just to be annoying. Just exploring.

I am not annoyed at all, Richard. Play on, playa. Or explore on, explora.

I love these kinds of discussions.

I have never read any proof at all of subconscious or spirit or heart or intuition are separate entities. I just assume...and I know my assumtion mightn't be true, that different parts of the brain store and process info differently and we as humans need to build stories to explain the scientific process. These stories must stroke our egos. Hence, we have hearts and souls that make us morally superior to earth's other living creatures, and we have subconsciouses to blame for our resistances and failures.

So a theory on how sogr and belief work might be that all parts of the brain have to be simultaneously on the same page Maybe we even need that to feel happiness and peace. Maybe a brain divided is ineffective. And maybe thats just how some of us live in a state of confusion with a million conflicting bits of information moving around our minds every minute.

Cool discussion...and just my thoughts...fun.

quote:

Does the subconscious mind really exist?
How do you know the existence of the subconscious to be true? In other words,
how do we really know it exists?

Is it a separate entity within our brain?

Hi Richard,
I really do NOT know, but the theory of its existence certainly explains a lot for ME, and like Annie suggested,

quote:

all parts of the brain have to be simultaneously on the same page

I have found what Annie says to be true for me. To me, the "subconscious mind"/"our hard drive" DOES exist. Doing various things to affect it and clear resistance are BASED on that theory, such as EFT and using exercises Harry W. Carpenter's book "The Genie Within". They have made a HUGE difference for me.

In summary then, the only way I can prove its existence is from the actual results that I have personally obtained (EFT, Harry's subconscious reprogramming exercises) because these were based on the theory that the subconscious mind exists. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's what comes to mind when pondering the question.

Neat thread!

My first thought when I read the thread title was: Please, better be real, otherwise I'd lose my career.

As a hypnotherapist, I have made a profession out of "subconscious mind". Big deal for me, hahaha.

Alright, I'd given it a lot of thoughts before this question was asked. I'll see if I can keep my versions of answers short here.

quote:

There is a discussion going on in a group I belong to about the subconscious mind.

Richard, would you please PM me the url of this group discussion?

quote:

Does the subconscious mind really exist?
How do you know the existence of the subconscious to be true? In other words,how do we really know it exists?

Is it a separate entity within our brain?

There is no such a thing that exists as a separate entity (nothing really exists at all as separate entity) called subconscious mind. The mind is able to handle 5 to 9 things at a time, for example, I know I'm typing, I hear birds in the forest outside the window, a plane goes by, I feel relatively warm here, my mind is thinking how to reply to Richard's thread to show I'm smart....These are in my awareness now.

But there are millions of things going on outside my awareness (or conscious mind), for example, my heart is beating, my body is functioning, the memory of using English words to support my expression is processing... But now that I'm talking about these, they ARE in this moment in my awareness. You see, it's more a matter of "Stream of consciousness" than making something into "conscious mind" and some others into "subconscious mind"; therefore "subconscious mind" is nothing but a Convenient Label.

With all memories, learnings, constant outside stimulus, the streams from outside and inside would be too much for the brain to handle - remember at one moment in time, it can handle only 5-9 things - so information goes through a filter system. Anything that's not handled by the conscious mind now, for this moment, we can call it stored in (or processed in) subconscious mind.

Some people use drugs like LSD to open up their consciousness... but still, there's a limit, otherwise the person may go insane.

Did I just say "filter system"? A lot of information can go through a distorted filter system, like limiting beliefs... It's another book to write.

quote:

Can we only change the subconscious mind through our present conscious?

Yes and no. Yes for "present", we can only change what's here and now.
No for "through conscious". Subconscious mind can be changed "unconscously".

quote:

Can you really change your subconscious thoughts that may keep you from achieving what you want without being aware of it?

Yes. That's how hypnosis and other healing modalities work.

quote:

If the subconscious has the power to direct our lives without us being aware of it can we change it without our awareness?

Yes. That's how people developed all sorts of phobias and don't know why. That's why some hypnotherapists do the trance work and suggest amnesia afterwards so the whole learning is processed without awareness (or conscious interference).

quote:

How much influence does it really have?

I don't know. In our profession they say 85%. Bruce Lipton would say 95%.

quote:

Does the subconscious mind hold the part of us that is the truth?

Is there The Truth?

quote:

I will end it with my favorite line from Byron Katie - How do you know that to be true?

No, I don't know.

How do I know if the world exists? Is the subscious mind in the world or beyond the world?

Kemila

Fascinating questions, Richard!

I loved Kamila's response. (I find I nearly always do.)

My first thought was very similar to something she said -- that nothing is completely disconnected. Our consciousness is fluid. Like a body of water, there is a surface and quit a bit that doesn't show. There are also constantly changing currents that change what comes to the surface at any given time.

To continue the analogy, the banks could be like our physical bodies -- defined and profoundly effected by the water they contain.

How do we know it exists? Well, again like Kemila said, it's a label. Clearly we have automatic thoughts and motor functions. We call that body of mental activity that we are not immediately focused on the subconscious. I find it hard to believe that anyone would seriously challenge that definition.

Still, perhaps some people are skeptical of the idea that it has more power than our conscious will. This, too, seems self evident to me.

Haven't we all experienced the power of our subconscious whenever we struggle against it? Anytime you are upset after promising yourself that you wont be, or you are paralyzed by fear that you know to be irrational, you are experiencing the vast power of the subconscious mind.

The good news is that there are LOTS of ways to examine that programing and to make an ally of those automatic responses instead of an enemy.

What a great discussion!

Love and blessings,
Rachel

quote:

ichard, would you please PM me the url of this group discussion?

Hi Kemila,

This is not an online group. It's a spiritual discussion group I have attended for 8 years once a week.

Appreciation from the Heart,

Richard De Haven

hi

The way i see the subconscious mind is as a store house of all those things WE believe to be true. whether those things are actually true or not is irrelevant. No one really knows what the truth is.

The subconscious is very powerful and direct our actions and behaviour to validate those things and beliefs whenever they are the subject of our attention. That I think is why it is futile to try change other people's opinion on certain issues by logical reasoning alone because their subconscious mind will always find a way to validate their belief.

One way of programming the subconscious is by repetition of thoughts. I don't know how long it will take but i do know that once something is fully programmed in your subconscious, you feel good thinking about it.

The subconscious mind hold that part that the individual believed is the truth. And truth is relative. What we are doing here learning to live the certain way is simply reprogramming our subconscious to achieve a new truth.One that serves us.

How do i know that to be true? Well it is just my view on this subject and as I say before no one really knows what is the truth. I feel good just posting this message and I believe someone out there will benefit from my explanation.

With all my love.
successfully yours.
Abdul.

It seems to me, the important thing to notice about your subconscious mind is, it’s always letting you know what’s in it. It’s constantly communicating to you what you believe – good or bad, or in between – about whatever you’re focused on. Do you want to know what you really believe about something (or someone, including yourself)? Then, just think about the thing or person and notice how you FEEL.

We FEEL what we really BELIEVE (whether it’s ‘true’ or not).

But it seems this can get a little tricky. For example, if you ever watch American Idol you will often see someone adamantly proclaiming they believe in their selves and their talent. But, like me, don’t you notice that often what they’re saying doesn’t match how they seem to be feeling? So, it’s not about what you say. It’s about how you really FEEL. How you really FEEL is what you REALLY believe.

By the way, here is a guideline that I think you can work with: If you feel bad about something (or someone, or yourself) it’s almost ALWAYS a sign you have a limiting belief about it. But it DOESN’T mean it’s a truth. It simply means this is what you currently believe about the thing (or person).

But, if you feel BAD about something you don’t need to accept the idea behind it. In fact, I believe these are the feelings we’re supposed to acknowledge and then consciously or deliberately resolve, so that we can have or create more of whatever it is we want.

For example, some people think about money and feel bad. Why? Because they have some limiting belief(s) about it, like, “There’s not enough of it.” “I don’t deserve it.” “You have to cheat, lie or steal to get lots of it.” Whatever the limiting belief, it will cause you to have problems with money. So, the solution is to play with new ideas and find those that give you GOOD feelings when you think about money. And once you start feeling good about money, you will find that you ‘somehow’ seem to get it easier.

So, what I’m saying is: You can know what’s in your Subconscious, simply by noticing how you feel, moment to moment, as you think about this or that. And when you’re not feeling great, be GLAD, because now you know where/how you’re getting in your own way,.. and now you know exactly what you need to rethink, so that you can more easily flow with and into whatever you want.

Do you want an easier way to a better life? Then simply notice how you're feeling and get better at feeling better.

Phil

Hey, Richard -- what do you mean by "real?"

quote:

you will often see someone adamantly proclaiming they believe in their selves and their talent. But, like me, don’t you notice that often what they’re saying doesn’t match how they seem to be feeling? So, it’s not about what you say. It’s about how you really FEEL.

I downloaded a retreat recording and listened to it on my MP3 player in the park. A woman was very excited by the exercises they just did together; and shared some of her discoveries. She said, "One of the things I found out in the exercise with other participants was that I don't care any more about how other people think about me, because I seem to have found the truth about myself, that who I am does not need anybody else's approval..."

The host congratulated her. Then she went on saying, "I hope I have not offended some of you here by what I truly felt..."

Several dog walkers looked to my direction; then I realized I must have burst into laughters too loud...

To even begin to answer this question I would like to know exactly what you mean with the words 'real' and 'exist'...

quote:

Hey, Richard -- what do you mean by "real?" Wink

Well, hmmmm........ I will try my best to articulate my thoughts.

In the spiritual realm it's not real. What I have learned it's all one mind one thought, not separated by subconscious or conscious awareness.

I recently read something on the internet that said our lives are directed by our subconscious. That all of our success and failures is based on our subconscious. That the subconscious without us being aware of it will direct our present actions and thoughts.

Here is another thought that I came across "If we have a belief that it's not likely that we'll ever be rich, our subconscious will do everything in its power to see that our belief comes true for us."

The reason I asked the question as I did, it's because I have read and listened to many people speak of the the subconscious as separate from our conscious awareness that has enormous power to control the outcomes of our lives regardless of our present awareness.

In essence making subconscious this separate real something that is making choices on our behalf. I can just see it now, some cartoon with a little guy sitting behind a console pushing buttons and making choices without our awareness.

Perhaps the subconscious is the Ego.

I do understand and agree with many of the concepts shared above. I just don't see it as absolute that the subconscious has all this power of over us without our awareness.

My theater work is a perfect example. Many thoughts of failure have lingered in my mind consciously or subconsciously but they have not kept me from experiencing success with my work many times over.

Perhaps my commitment to my life mission is stronger than those thoughts. Even when I am experiencing doubt I remember what I want and move forward even with the doubt present.

I believe it's the intention of my heart that attracts the success. Maybe it's the subconscious thought I stored in there that I will succeed regardless of doubts and fears.

It's all fascinating to me and I love the exploration.

Appreciation from the Heart,

Richard De Haven

It is very easy to confuse "awareness" with "conscious mind". For me, they are different. Awareness doesn't need thinking. Being aware, that's what you do when you meditate. You can be aware of what's in your conscious mind and subconscious mind. On another hand, what "conscious mind" does is nothing but thinking, thinking, and thinking.

Positive thinking is wonderful, but it's done with the conscious mind -- Well of course as Abdul mentioned, repetition can get it into subscious mind, so that it becomes real power.

Our subconscious mind is programmed (mostly the early stages of our live) and it only replays those programs. Another word for programs is beliefs.

Imagine if those programs are negative: Money is bad. I am not worth it. Richness is not for me. I am just like my daddy...

The power of our subconscious mind is enormous, it actually runs the show. Your are "runned" by your subconscious mind most of the time.

So get AWARE of how your subconscious mind is programmed and make sure that when it is sending out different signals than what your conscious mind is sending out, that you reprogram your subconscious mind.

Again, we can be AWARE of our conscious thinking and subconscious programing. And our EMOTIONS are God giving built-in system of letting us know what's going on.

quote:

Originally posted by kemila:
our EMOTIONS are God giving built-in system of letting us know what's going on.

That is, what's going on in our Sub-Conscious Mind.

So,…

Is the Sub-Conscious Mind real?

In my opinion, yes. Here’s how I see it:

Do you remember learning how to drive? Do you remember how you had to learn all those aspects of it consciously, like how much pressure to apply to the pedals to get the results you wanted, or how much to steer, and how you had to vary how much you turned the steering wheel, depending on how fast you were going, and how you had to learn how to use your mirrors, and what to look for when changing lanes or backing up?

And, do you remember how, for some parts of it, it all seemed overwhelming, at least for awhile?

And now, do you notice how easily you handle all those tasks, without hardly thinking about it at all?

Well, what do you suppose happened?

All those individual tasks were learned and are now in your Sub-Conscious Mind. And, for the most part, the only thing you have to Consciously focus on while driving is where you’re going, and aspects of your curent driving environment (e.g., surrounding traffic, weather/road conditions, etc.).

Another example: Do you notice you can read and understand what I’ve written, without hardly any Conscious effort?

But now, how is that possible? You didn’t ‘start out’ this way.

Same process. You learned individual letters. And then you learned how combinations of them sounded. And you learned that letters made up words, and that words had meanings and/or that words were ‘describing’ objects and concepts, etc., etc., etc.

All this is pretty complicated, but here you are, easily able to follow along with what I’m writing, and able to understand, mostly without Conscious effort. Why is this so? Because you have learned many things that are now in your ‘below the level of conscious’ mind, e.g., in your Sub-Conscious Mind.

But now the ‘other’ question: Does our Sub-Conscious Mind really control us, much more so than our Conscious Mind?

I think the answer is mostly ‘yes’ BUT,… You can use your Conscious Mind to notice where your Sub-Conscious Mind is ‘aiming’ or ‘directing’ your life. How? By noticing how you FEEL, as you go about experiencing what you experience, and doing what you are doing, or as you even just ‘think’ about doing something or being something (as in being more outgoing, or being more focused, or improving your knowledge or skill with something, etc).

For example: Let’s say you’ve Consciously come to the conclusion that you’d like to be in great shape. What FEELINGS then come up with this conscious conclusion? Do you FEEL it’s going to be easy and fun and exciting and exhilarating and rewarding and fulfilling and meaningful? Or do you FEEL it’s going to be hard and troublesome, or that it’s a vain desire, or that it’s ‘not really you’ or that you haven’t got what it takes, or that you’re just fooling yourself?

Well, however you FEEL about the idea of getting into great shape is what is ‘learned’ ideas (aka BELIEFS) that are stored in your Sub-Conscious Mind. So, if you get the idea of getting into great shape and you FEEL some wonderful feelings, it just means your BELIEFS in your ‘below-the-level-of-conscious mind are supporting your Conscious desire.

But if you FEEL unwanted feelings, e.g., doubt, fear, tiredness, lack of enthusiasm, guilt, shame, etc., then it really JUST means that you have BELIEFS in your Sub-Conscious Mind that are contrary to the idea of you getting in great shape.

So, the next question: Do you have to CONTINUE believing BELIEFS that are going to make it hard for you to do what needs to be done to have what you want? The answer is ‘no’ you don’t.

Once you notice you have unwanted FEELINGS about something you want, just understand that those FEELINGS are simply the outcome or your conscious experience of your BELIEFS, and you do NOT need to keep adhering to BELIEFS that you don’t want to. You can now simply Consciously go to work to change your beliefs to ones that support the outcome you want.

Here’s another example: Do you really LIKE yourself? When you think of yourself, do you easily get some GOOD FEELINGS? If you don’t it’s not because you’re unlikable, or that you aren’t inherently someone to feel good about. It’s simply that you have somehow learned to BELIEVE unkind things about yourself.

So, if you don’t FEEL good about yourself, it’s just poor programming. And once you know this (or at least can see the sense of it) you can now take the Conscious steps to improve how you think and what you BELIEVE about yourself. And voila, your FEELINGS about yourself will begin to improve. (And as they do, you will more easily create the life you want, because now, your Sub-Conscious Mind will be in alignment with your Conscious desires of a better life.)

Sound too simplistic for you?

Phil

Since I haven't been particularly sucessful with eft, counseling, hypnosis, etc....can you think of any other way to reprogram my subconscious to like myself or feel worthy of money or even a desirable relationships?

I gotta say I am sick of my morning and evening mind movies and the whole exercise of getting into the feeling place of being who I want to be. I am tired. I am so awesome in these moments, but I am sick of trying to get there.

I use me as the example, but I am sure there are others lurking in the same situation. There usually are.