This all goes back to the days when I thought I could or wanted to control other people's, especially those close to me, thoughts and actions.

Now, it is such a relief to not have that kind of thinking anymore. Trying to control what other people do drags us down, tires us and keeps us from receiving what it is we want. In a lot of cases, this could be fruitful and lasting relationships.

As a woman, who has been married for almost nineteen years, I can tell you that trying to control my husband's actions did nothing but bring strife into our lives, and the more I did that, the more he stayed away from me.

Once I let go of those thoughts and actions, I started receiving more affection that I ever thought possible.

This is a little off the subject, but it surprises me when people are so amazed that we've been married as long as we have. They say it is unusual.

Well. Let's look at this for a minute. Why is it marriages don't last as long as they used to? Is it, possibly, because one of the spouses, or both, were trying to control the other? It's a thought.

Women didn't used to try that when I was growing up. They were the home makers and took those responsibilities seriously. The man always made the final decisions. And when wives allowed themselves to agree, then things always turned out for the better.

I'm thankful I'm one of those women. I've noticed some gals think it's just terrible if their husbands don't spend every non-working moment with them. I, on the other hand, say grab your fishing pole and get on down to the lake. Men need their time, and our trying to control it only makes them unhappy and resistant to spending any time with their wives.

Let him have his free time to do what he wants, spend time with his buddies, go fishing or boating. Let him make those decisions. Sure you talk about them, but, in the end, it's his castle, he's the King, and his last word should be the final one. Then be thankful he's willing to take that responsibility and trust he's going to make the right one that will benefit you both.

Yes, it seems I got way off track, but not necessarily. In the long run, I think this is what I was wanting to say all along.

Wallace Wattles was spot on when he said, don't try to control others. It only causes you and them grief, and, in the long run, ruins well made lives and plans.

Hello
Right on dear. You've got it and that's why your mariage will last 'till one of you go home.
When I first ask my future wife to mary me I also told her for me it was a one way street neither one of us will get out of it alive. No treat just fact. She answered " if I didn't want it to last for ever I would not get into it" We've been together for 37 years and counting. Now the kids are saying" we don't know what's worse mom without dad or dad without mom. We never tried to control each other we always allowed the other much room. Today we are doing everything together. Even chopping fire wood...together. It's a last and I feel sorry for those people thatdon't even want to try. What a waste of life. We never spoke to each other in anger or shout or swear never did that happen. Now that they are married our kids ask us how do you do it? If you really love the other it's easy. Just follow your hart.
Thanks for sharing that.
BT

quote:

(originally posted by Penwright1029)The man always made the final decisions. And when wives allowed themselves to agree, then things always turned out for the better.

quote:

Sure you talk about them, but, in the end, it's his castle, he's the King, and his last word should be the final one. Then be thankful he's willing to take that responsibility and trust he's going to make the right one that will benefit you both.

HMMMMM...This brings up a lot for me. There is a difference between agreeing and stuffing your feelings. It is important to know which it is you are doing. I stuffed them for years, and they would come out quite sideways before I learned to validate myself. At the time, all I wanted to was to keep the peace, even if it meant denying myself. My mother allowed my father to completely dominate her to keep the peace, and we (me and my 3 siblings) suffered terribly, physically and emotionally.

As an adult, I used to do the same thing-except I drew the line when it came to my children, and then terminated the relationship. The "keeping the peace at all costs" and denying my heart and my feelings caused me a lot of physical problems later on, which I am working through and healing from today.

I don't always agree with my husband, but I let him know very peacefully and calmly if my views are different or I disagree.. Where the "not controlling" comes in for me is not having to make him agree with me to feel okay. I allow him to have his opinion. And I can still have mine. I do not have to have the "last word" because it isn't about who is right or not.(The old Competetive mindedness) And I make my own decisions based on how I feel in my heart, because today, I know that I can think for myself, and it's okay if he doesn't agree. This applies to anyone else too.

I have what I like to call a "working partnership" with my husband. It is OUR home. And I am coming up on 7 years married, and I am as much in love with him today as the day we met.

What I find works best when his behavior is not to my liking or provokes a strong reaction is this: the Ho 'oponopono prayer."I'm sorry,please forgive me, I thank you, I love you." When someone in my life is behaving badly, I take FULL responsibility, because I understand that by being a Fragment of the Whole,that person is reflecting a part of me that is out of whack, even if I don't always see it right away in myself.(Hence, the "thank you" part.) And THAT means that I NEED HEALING and CLEARING. By now, you can see that this becomes a full time job, because since there is a whole lot that is out of whack with the world, that means that there is a whole lot that is out of whack with me.

I have been doing this since not long after I started SOGR. I can list some of the amazing miracles that have happened in my life as a result:

1)My oldest son was a heroin addict and alcoholic. Today, he is clean/sober 5 months, and we have a phenomenal relationship.

2)My husband was sick with cancer. He was angry all the time and had an explosive temper (never towards me, just towards life in general). Today, he not only is healing physically (the physical therapists can't believe the progress, and they see hundreds of people) but he is so much lighter, makes fun of himself, and the meltdowns are very few and short-lived. And where formerly he had a very detached attitude from life,tolerating it at best, he said the other day "I am grateful to be alive and love life".

3) My mother, who criticized everyone and everything, and constantly criticized my clothing, hair, or headwrap, didn't say ONE NEGATIVE WORD when I visited her just yesterday.
And we had a great time.

4) My formerly overbearing neighbor and I (I couldn't stand the sight of her in the past) have become friends.

5)My good friend, who was in excruciating pain for 3 months, called me today to tell me that she's almost pain free MOST OF THE TIME, and won't need painful back surgery.

6) And you Clairetta! You have learned what true wealth is-and I have been doing this prayer on myself/for you for a long time too. Writing that post Wealth Is In The Mind of the Beholder to me marked a major milestone for you. I was so joyful and happy for you when I read it.

The list could go on and on. The prayer and intent and good feeling behind it in my life anyway has yielded some amazing results. And it has NOTHING to do with controlling anybody, only healing myself.

And when you begin to see the results, you'll realize the AWESOME Being that you are!

Love and Light,
Julia

In my upbringing it was my Mom who made all the decisions, my Dad was the breadwinner for much of their marriage and he paid the bills. My Mom when she finally went out to work (last child started school) she took care of fixing up the house and investing financially for their future. They retired quite comfortably but their health wasn't the best, guess that was their own issues with how they viewed life.

BT. You have blessings galore. I cannot say there has never been any voice raising, confrontation, swearing or arguing. Quite the contrary, if I don't agree with something, I let my thoughts be none, and some times, not too kind. It all depends on why I am reacting to whatever it is he is doing or saying.

For instance, the other day, I really got on him for blowing a gasket over something quite trivial. The reason I did was due to my concern for his health. He didn't appreciate it and became even more agitated, but that even didn't stop me to remind him he was in the danger zone.

I think, some times, it is necessary to let out those feelings. If we don't, they become bottled up inside only to cause a fracus later, which can end up in a full blown knock out, drag out fight.

While he has never been openly physical with me, and God help him if he did, because then I would leave in a heartbeat, he has used unkind and unfair terms with me.

I'm a very gentle woman, but I also believe I have the right to stand up for myself.

Julia, when I said I allow him to make the final decision, it is a choice of mine to do so. If he made one that was illegal, such as telling me to rob a bank (I know, that's quite silly, but you get my drift) obviously, I would tell him no way. I'm talking about the every day decisions. I believe what the Word of God says on this. Wives are to be subject to their husbands. I'm not saying that means we are to bow down to them, but to respect their abilities to make them for our best interests.

I know what you mean about burying feelings and not allowing ourselves to express ourselves. I did that too, but, at some point, that all changed. Now I speak what's on my mind. I've discovered something. By doing so, he treats me with greater respect than before.

So I agree with you on that subject, but I still stand on my beliefs for the husband to make the final decisions. To be honest, I don't want that responsibility anyway. If women are to be honest, they don't either. Look at women who have no husband. They have to make all the decisions. In fact, they would prefer to not have to be in that position. And here, I know what I'm talking about from personal experience.

It was very difficult raising a daughter by myself, and when the chips were down, she became totally unruly. If she had a father to care for her and for her to see how a man is to be with his wife, she wouldn't have gone through the many years of suffering she endured at the hands of an abuser, and then also losing all of her children.

I'm putting it all out on the table here. My daughter, bless her soul, had it rough because the man, my ex, her stepfather, who was supposed to be there for us, making the decisions, wouldn't take his responsibilities serious enough to keep us off the streets. Being bounced around and abandoned has taken it's toll on her. But, thank God, she has proven to be strong and come up out of a lot of it. But she still has a long way to go.

One more thing, which I said before is, when I go with what my husband decides, as long as it lines up with what is right, I am always blessed. For this reason, I am happy with this decision.

quote:

I really got on him for blowing a gasket over something quite trivial. The reason I did was due to my concern for his health. He didn't appreciate it and became even more agitated, but that even didn't stop me to remind him he was in the danger zone.

I'll just ask you to stop a moment and consider if this isn't trying to control him. For "his own good," perhaps, but think about it. (And we all do it!)

quote:

Originally posted by penwright1029:

I still stand on my beliefs for the husband to make the final decisions.

perhaps to rephrase this to your life rather than apply to all women or wives? Rather than use 'the husband' rephrase to 'my husband'. I believe that is YOUR belief in your lifestyle.

In my relationship we both make decisions, some are together, some are his and some are mine. I never see it as giving up anything in the decision process.

You also quoted:

quote:

Wallace Wattles was spot on when he said, don't try to control others. It only causes you and them grief, and, in the long run, ruins well made lives and plans.

When one needs to control another this is usually indicative of a lack of control in ones own life. If you allow one to control you then yes, your life will reflect in that control and then the control reverses itself.

quote:

(originally posted by Penwright 1029)It was very difficult raising a daughter by myself, and when the chips were down, she became totally unruly. If she had a father to care for her and for her to see how a man is to be with his wife, she wouldn't have gone through the many years of suffering she endured at the hands of an abuser, and then also losing all of her children.

Maybe, maybe not. Remember that your daughter also made her choices in life. I was raised with two parents that were married for 40 years and was still in abusive relationships. I watched my father make all my mother's decisions, and did the same, because it was all I knew at the time until I learned differently in a couple of 12 step groups. I do not blame my parents for my misfortunes though. Rather, I thank them today because it was all necessary for my spiritual growth and development. I made the choice of getting help, and today I have a healthy marriage and emotionally healthy children. And I raised my 3 children alone for a long time.

quote:

I'm putting it all out on the table here. My daughter, bless her soul, had it rough because the man, my ex, her stepfather, who was supposed to be there for us, making the decisions, wouldn't take his responsibilities serious enough to keep us off the streets. Being bounced around and abandoned has taken it's toll on her. But, thank God, she has proven to be strong and come up out of a lot of it. But she still has a long way to go.

Ask yourself this Clairetta:
If you allow the man to take all the responsibility, are you not then putting yourself in a position to put all the blame on him. in this case, your ex? Are you not then avoiding taking responsibility for yourself (ie being out on the streets) and allowing someone else to control your life? Are you blaming him for what happened to your daughter? Is your daughter also doing the same, blaming her stepfather, and thus also avoiding taking responsibility for her own life?

Allowing someone else to make your decisions for you perhaps isn't always a good idea?

As one who has been there, I invite you to ask yourself these questions. I used to blame my ex the same way. I ended up homeless and pregnant when I was married to him and blamed him for failing in his "duties" as a husband. because I was raised to believe that a man is supposed to take care of a woman in a relationship. I was TERRIFIED of standing on my own two feet emotionally and physically.

Today, I owe my independence to what I learned from him, and I am truly grateful to him for all that he taught me, painful and terrifying as it was at the time.

Also, ditto to what Being NOW said. I feel that it is important not to make generalizations about how men and women should behave in a relationship, and keep it to "I" statements (ie, "I feel that", "for me, I find that", etc.)

Love and Light,
Julia

Hi Pen

quote:

BT. You have blessings galore.

You bet your boths i am. Thanks for reminding me. I always new that if we looked together in the same direction we would find solutions for anything. Adding the presence of the Supreme Intelligence we have a winning combo. Everything else is of no great importance. My wife taught me a valuable thing" don't sweat the small stuff" it took a while for me to get it. Oh do I wish to all what we are experiencing together if I could give it away to all...
Take care
BT

B.T. By example, I'm still working on helping him to understand to not sweat the small stuff. In the long run, things work themselves out.

As far as my letting him control me, that is the furthest from the truth.

And when has it become wrong to be concerned for your loved one's health? Who says we're not suppose to remind a person to be careful and not allow themselves to get overwrought?

No. I do not consider that as trying to control someone. I consider that as being a human being who cares about others. I see too much of this "looking out for me" syndrome, in this day. What ever happened to looking out for the other person? And besides, doesn't it say in the vows in sickness and in health? I purvey that to mean to help the spouse stay healthy. I think we all need to take some responsibility for that. And I do it gladly.

Yes, Julia, you're right. My daughter did make her choices. She will be the first to admit it. But don't you think it makes a huge difference, in a child's life, if they have a father who takes care of her or his needs? And part of that is to be the one who makes the family decisions.

This modernistic society is causing all kinds of ills. The old fashioned way of doing things is being taken over by new age ideals. Those ideals, from what I perceive, are destroying families. I still say give me the good ole family values where the father was the head of the family.

I am not saying a woman should never be allowed to make decisions. I think I was misunderstood there. I make some of the decisions too, but when it's financial, it is an agreement between us that he makes those. When it came to our home, I made the decision for it. I said, I want it, and he filled out the paper work on the spot. Yes. This is a financial decision, but what I'm talking about is where the bills are concerned. He decides who gets paid and when. I do the calling to pay them. That was also our decision together, for me to pay our bills.

He is not comfortable doing this over the phone and knows little to nothing about computers so that responsibility is mine.

I hope this clears up some confusion or misunderstanding what I was trying to convey.

Hi Clairetta,
Before I answer, I just want to say that I think you're a Beautiful Person, and what I am about to say to you I say with love from my heart.

quote:

And when has it become wrong to be concerned for your loved one's health? Who says we're not suppose to remind a person to be careful and not allow themselves to get overwrought?

There is nothing wrong with being concerned. But I will tell you from dealing with Dino's cancer that one of the BIGGEST lessons I had to learn was that people have a right to be sick, and they also have a right to stay that way if they choose to, much as I'd like to see otherwise. For example, Dino has all kinds of exercises that the physical therapist gave him to do for his arm.(He had the pectoral muscle removed to replace the tissue in his throat that was taken out because of cancer, and so had limited mobility with his arm.) He does them rarely. Of course I want him to heal, but I respect his right to perhaps not want to. So I don't say anything, and I'm okay with his choice. And you know what? He's healing anyways-in fact the therapists are amazed with his progress and improved range of mobility, and he rarely does the exercises-LOL!

As far as sweating the small stuff, Dino does that a lot less. But I notice that the more I work on "getting him to see that it's detrimental" the more he'd do it. When I leave him alone, let him have his meltdown without trying to "fix him" so that I'll feel okay too, and just go back to my happy space, they hardly occur at all.


No. I do not consider that as trying to control someone. I consider that as being a human being who cares about others. I see too much of this "looking out for me" syndrome, in this day.

In looking out for yourself in a positive way, such as validating your feelings and being kind to yourself,I have found it to be THE BEST WAY to love others. I can only love others as much as I love myself. BE GOOD to yourself Clairetta. That is the best way you can help others-by being a power of example.

What ever happened to looking out for the other person? And besides, doesn't it say in the vows in sickness and in health? I purvey that to mean to help the spouse stay healthy. I think we all need to take some responsibility for that. And I do it gladly.

You can certainly be there for your partner. I slept on a hospital floor for 5 weeks to be with Dino. But I never did any healing on him unless he asked. I also never reproached him when he lost his temper-I'd simply walk away when he'd be having a "meltdown". We'd talk about it later, but only if he wanted to. Trying to get people well only creates resistance in my experience.


Yes, Julia, you're right. My daughter did make her choices. She will be the first to admit it. But don't you think it makes a huge difference, in a child's life, if they have a father who takes care of her or his needs? And part of that is to be the one who makes the family decisions.

Yes and no. It really depends on the father, the mother, and their relationship with themselves and with eachother. My father took care of all our financial needs, because my mother never worked, and wanted to stay home with her kids. I watched my mother neglect her OWN EMOTIONAL needs, and so I learned to do the same until I learned differently. I believe that the best role model one can be to a child is to teach them to take care of THEIR OWN emotional needs by being a Power of Example and taking care of YOU. And I was CLUELESS as to what that meant. That's where 12 step groups helped me so much. Taking care of yourself in no way deprives others, but rather, enriches their experience. Didn't Jesus say "Love one another as you love yourself?" If you don't love yourself and be kind to yourself unconditionally, how can you truly love anyone else unconditionally? You can't. You just try to control them instead. I had to learn to just let myself "BE". And in so doing, I can do the same for others.

This modernistic society is causing all kinds of ills. The old fashioned way of doing things is being taken over by new age ideals. Those ideals, from what I perceive, are destroying families. I still say give me the good ole family values where the father was the head of the family.

It is fear that is destroying families-fear of not having enough, fear of lack, plain old fear. Isn't it wonderful that there is more understanding today, such as self-help, the Internet, a forum like this, where we can learn differently? This would not have existed only a few short years ago. So "New Age ideals" of prosperity and abundance and unconditional love aren't all bad if you think about it.

Love and Light,
Julia

I've been reading this interaction with interest! I don't have anyting to add other than to say, JULIA, YOU'RE A GREAT TEACHER!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Strong:
I've been reading this interaction with interest! I don't have anything to add other than to say, JULIA, YOU'RE A GREAT TEACHER!!!

...and so say I too!

Wow Julia! You've given me a lot to chew on. Give me a couple of days to digest all this, then I'll get back to you. I will say this though, you're gettin through this ole hard head of mine.

Clairetta, I resisted quite some time to commenting on your very interesting post. You adress some very important issues. I just want to share my view based on my personal experiences and needs. Perhaps it makes for more food for thought...or not.

quote:

Let's look at this for a minute. Why is it marriages don't last as long as they used to? Is it, possibly, because one of the spouses, or both, were trying to control the other? It's a thought.

This is a possibility, Clairetta. But there are many reasons cited why marriages 'in the past' lasted and these cannot be ignored. Women (who were secretly unhappy for whatever reason) in the past had no other option - little education, no experience outside of the home and (patriarchail)society was very 'unforgiving' of women who did not/would not/could no longer stay in emotionally and/or physically abusing marriages. So they resigned themselves. Resigning oneself to such a marriage does not equate to a happy marriage...although it certainly will appear to be one to the husband.

As a result of generations of plenty of unhappy, unfullfilled marriages, in the 60's and onward one began to find more and more books and studies adressing this.

And more stories of men who were completely bewildered because 'we never argued a day of our lives' or 'we were so happy' who were then in their older age confronted with a divorce...from wives who for once wanted to be happy and on their own.

"We were so happy" equated to "I, the husband, had no clue about what was going on in my wife nor her needs" and "we never argued" equated to, she never contested anything I ever said, in other words she 'yes dear-ed' throughout the marriage.

It is far easier for some women to just relinquish all decision making to the husband...that way, if anything goes wrong, she does not share. After all 'my husband said/decided'. I don't know if many would call this a partership in a marital sense.

Men will usually love a relationship that allows them to do w h a t e v e r they please. Of course, wouldn't you? Some need the Master/servant role. I certainly do not.

I think everyone has a right to do as they please as long as: a.) they harm no one b.) they live on an island c.) any partner agrees/needs-for-whatever-psychological reason such a onesided patriarchial relationship.

And if we bring the bible into this, how many marriages also remember that 'do not unto others what you would not like done unto you' or the 'Golden Rule' (which is universal)? Many traditional marriages are based on a onesided interpretation of this. The Golden Rule seldom applies to the wife (coming from the husband).

I have witnessed more 'take' from husbands than 'give'.

Don't forget please, that the dark side was that women were considered property of their husbands (like a piece of furniture), many women actually believed what society taught yet were still frustrated, unhappy and ...resigned to their fate.

The women who were 'truly' happy were fortunate enough to have husbands that were capable of looking beyond their own needs and were considerate of the needs of their wife. This, sadly was not the norm (and still is not in many cases today).

Yes, a perfect Walton-esque marriage in a Walton-esque world is charming on the outside looking in, and one could long for it...but this took and takes a true partnership.

quote:

Women didn't used to try that when I was growing up. They were the home makers and took those responsibilities seriously. The man always made the final decisions. And when wives allowed themselves to agree, then things always turned out for the better.

You are right, there was no point in disagreeing. And if you had a husband who was CAPABLE of making wise choices and who was RESPONSIBLE...then there was no reason to disagree. But I do disagree that 'things always turned out for the better'. They certainly didn't 'always'.

But if you mean 'turned out for the better' because there was NO discussion, and so no argument...well then yes, husband happy and so wife 'happy'.

quote:

Men need their time, and our trying to control it only makes them unhappy and resistant to spending any time with their wives.

Men especially need their time alone either in their emotional caves or out fishing. This is certainly true, but women too need 'time out'. Often this is ignored because women raising families are busy taking care of everyone else! Often, men do not honour this.

quote:

Sure you talk about them, but, in the end, it's his castle, he's the King, and his last word should be the final one. Then be thankful he's willing to take that responsibility and trust he's going to make the right one that will benefit you both.

Why 'his castle'? Because this is oft quoted, one should believe it?? It is not 'your' (plural) castle? Do you not equally earn it for your sacrifices... or does only only 'he/she who pays the mortgage count"??

As far as 'decision making'...and sometimes they need a little seed subtly planted in their minds...so it grows and they think it is their own.

Nice quote I recall from somewhere (from the German):
"I am king in my castle, but I am surrounded by servants and obligations. It is lonely without my queen, who makes it my home".

quote:

Wallace Wattles was spot on when he said, don't try to control others. It only causes you and them grief, and, in the long run, ruins well made lives and plans.

As I see it, this applies to both sexes...supressing one (control) makes only one half of the relationship happy. And on the long run causes frustration.

I too, was far too 'controlling' of getting my husband to think of his health. He IS much better for it (I do not tolerate excesses...such as drinking and his liver was showing signs of disaccord) but I had to set ultimatums at one point as he certainly was not being 'responsible' but selfish. Later with other health issues...at one point I had to make it very clear that I am not his Mama, he is an adult, it is his health...he knows what he has to do (herbal medicines, homeopathy etc) and it is his choice.

Once I backed off the 'control' that I realized I was loosing too much energy over...because I truly was concerned for his health...well, he eventually started being very good about certain health issues and even seeking my advice. Now he is a natural health advocate.

At least for him, part of the problem was that he enjoyed (deep inside) resisting me - he is one who usually says 'no' to 'whatever' first. Once I backed off, his game was no longer fun and he realized that only he was responsible for his health...but that I was always there if he needed me.

Clairetta, I am one of those women who have always searched for a true partnership, one I could trust the other in. In the far past when I was in the submissive roll - and in very young years tried very hard at it (yes, dear, whatever you say dear, the castle is HIS etc etc... 'performing ''wifely duties'' as a job description with no further thought of ''my'' wishes)...I was in the end miserable because none of my needs were noticed nor listened to and I felt a little insignificant...no part of the castle was mine.

We are not all of equal opinion on this. I respect women who seek what you are describing and happy for them when they find responsible, caring and 'considerate partners'...but this rare.

My King passed away some years ago...I was his Queen and treated so, but I really could for once trust his experienced decisions...but as long as he was the center of attention everything was smooth...my personal needs were briefly tolerated as long as they did not interfer with his agenda. But in all it was a happy, though flawed, all to short relationship. And I miss him until today.

Now I am in a marriage where because this is my (paid cash) house and I have all the resonsibility...I have a partner who leaves it all up to me. My husband is not concerned about anything, doesn't want to know and is the same about my emotional needs. This is not a partnership. I am the Queen here but feel alone. I have no king, I have a permanent guest who is reluctant to take part of the resonsibility but who enjoys the benefits of 'the castle' (note please, not 'my' castle). I have absolutely none of the benefits of a partnership once we married. He does, but I do not.

My point is, a King or Queen who has no real input, or support, who has to make all the decisions and has all the resonsiblilty is on his/her own...has a rather lonely position. I get a little tired of it...and yes, like your husband...I need and do 'go fishing' sometimes.

I also know that there are plenty of men 'out there' who also need a true partner...a Queen who will make them 'feel' like a King. That is a huge difference.

For me it is partnership I need, but don't have -yet- (work/decision shareload of two retired people albeit me early at 48 now 58) and communication (me always trying and he always closed). That last part is the tricky one!

quote:

Originally posted by penwright1029:
I still say give me the good ole family values where the father was the head of the family.

I am not saying a woman should never be allowed to make decisions. I think I was misunderstood there.

you are definitely not misunderstood but definitely have your opinion that men and women have their places rather than as individual people but as a place according to gender.

In my family history, since that is the only one I can comment on, the women in my family were the ones who held the families together, they made the decisions for the family and the men/fathers were the breadwinners. Perhaps, each family is so different in their experience that is why I don't believe in the 'man' being the 'boss'. I am my own person and was brought up to believe in those values, not as a woman or as a person less than equal to my partner in life.

This topic pushed a few little *buttons* of mine and so I paused for a few days and kind of meditated on this...This is what came to me...the sex-role stereotyping...is basically let's see, what's a good word for *meaningless*?...well, I guess meaningless is the word..;-) I laugh...Since we are all really and truly spirit and since these physical bodies are merely spacesuits...all these cultural things ..about what men do and what women do is just meaningless..I wish I had another word but it just doesn't manifest...spirit is what we are and for anyone who is manifesting as a male or female in this lifetime, well, it is simply an experience and no one is superior...or inferior..no one spirit can decide anything for another....we have our little spacesuits that we can drive....and have experiences with..that's it..simple...

I will now go back to my lessons in manifesting big money and wonderful little houses with hardwood floors and swell tangerine trees..

Thanks for being here all of you beautiful people.

Hi again fellow travelers!

OK - I said that I had nothing to add! But here it goes from a modern new age man's perspective!

My wife and I are partners in this lifes adventure. I met her in Japan where wives were tought to be submissive, but she never has fallen into that mold. Through our marrige of 45 years we have both worked, both took equal roles in rearing our children,taking care of our home and deciding how we spent our money! She is does most of the cooking, I do most of the house cleaning! In our printing business we were equal partners!

And this is how we raised our children!

When our son was in college I asked him what he wanted in a wife he replied "someone who is smarter than me". After he introduced me to his than to be wife I asked him what he liked about her he said that "she got better grades than him with less work". Both of them are now Doctors, our son does most of the cooking but both of them share in the rasing of their children, work around the house and financial decisions - they are best friends. Their marriage will be long lasting!

Our daughter and her husband also both have happy, fulfilling, creative careers, both share in the raising of thier children, maintaining the home and making fincancial decissions? By the way her husband is the better cook and does most of the cooking! They are best friends, their marriage will be long lasting!

I promised to come back after digesting the information I've received here.

What has happened has been less than amazing. For the first time in our marriage, I told Don that I want us to make decisions together and for me to make one regarding something quite important. I asked him to trust my ability to do this. He agreed.

I'm sure you're all chomping at the bit wondering how this all turned out. I won't hold you in abeyance anymore.

I made the dumbest decision I've ever made in my life. It affected our lives, financially, and in many other ways. Ok. I could say it was not good for me to make this decision, but truth be known, even though it didn't turn out the way I wanted, I'm still thankful for the opportunity to make it anyway.

But something else has happened. I've started taking a stand on what I believe to be right. I'm not doing it in such a way as to make him agree with me, but only to be in my own right so I can feel good about myself as a person.

I like all I've read here and really learned a lot. I thank all of you for sharing your experiences, but, in the long run, I still am going to leave the financial decisions to him. He has a lot of experience with this, and I don't feel I have the ability to make the correct ones, which this has taught me is true.

I did decide something he doesn't agree with though. I told him I'm getting my hair cut-that I can't stand my hair being so long. He tried telling me that I wasn't to get it cut too short. I let him know it's my hair and I am tired of it looking so straggly. Then I informed him he could trust I wouldn't get it cut like a guy-his biggest concern. So, within the next couple of weeks, when I get the extra money, somehow, I'm not only getting it cut, but I'm going to have it dyed as I don't like being gray either. As a matter of fact, I'm going to get a complete makeover. I'm definitely due.

The picture you see of me here is when I had my last one, which, by the way, I got for free. I looked and felt fantastic! This is what I want again.

The one thing that has come out of all this is, I am so grateful because we are agreeing on things instead of him making all the decisions, and I have more pride in myself since I've stood up and said I'm going to make my own decisions, and that I have a right to.

One thing I decided is, I don't want to work out of our home. This is something that has been a bone of contention with him. He thinks I have to have a job. I don't want a job. I want a business, and that is going to be something I will be working on too.

Yea.....

As they say, "You GO girl!"

I am proud of you. (if it means anything, that is)