quote:

Originally posted by avinash:
Here is what Rebecca wrote on Dec 28, '05

Friends, while it may be infinitely "interesting" to discuss religion and to get into whose interpretation of this religious writing or that scripture is correct, or any of the other stuff that can be debated endlessly, my personal view is that IF what you have to say isn't directly in discussion of some part of SOGR or its teachings, then it doesn't really belong in this "Discuss The Book" forum and doesn't really get us anywhere.

I couldn't agree more. Although I don't mind religious quotes, and have done so sparingly in some of my posts, in support of SOGR principles, an indepth discussion about religion for its own sake is a nonstarter, as it comes with baggage and preconceptions of "right and wrong" for so many. You have to clear out all that first.

From someone who's been there and done that, you can easily lose sight of the forest for the trees when discussing theology.

Better to just start with a clean slate.

To Avinash:

I agree with you and Rebecca that we should limit our comments in this section to the discussion of the book.

My question to you (and Rebecca) is this: since Wally quoted the Bible is practically every chapter of his book, can we completely separate the two?

Like Laurie, I believe the original substance to be God. I think Wally did too.

Just curious.

Ron

If I could interject, the admonition isn't against discussing God/Formless/Universe, but getting into an endless discussion of scripture, regardless of the religion.

One does not have to discuss the Bible (or whatever other scripture) in order to talk about God...or the principles of SOGR.

In the thread unearthed by avinash below, one poster was kind enough to post the preface to SOGR that's been omitted from the ebook.

In light of this discussion, it bears reposting what Wattles himself has to say:
---------------------------------------------
Preface
THIS book is pragmatical, not philosophical, a practical manual, not a treatise upon theories. It is intended for the men and women whose most pressing need is for money, who wish to get rich first, and philosophize afterward. It is for those who have, so far, found neither the time, the means, nor the opportunity to go deeply into the study of metaphysics, but who want results and who are willing to take the conclusions of science as a basis for action, without going into all the processes by which those conclusions were reached.

It is expected that the reader will take the fundamental statements upon faith, just as he would take statements concerning a law of electrical action if they were promulgated by a Marconi or an Edison, and, taking the statements upon faith, that he will prove their truth by acting upon them without fear or hesitation. Every man or woman who does this will certainly get rich, for the science herein applied is an exact science, and failure is impossible. For the benefit, however, of those who wish to investigate philosophical theories and so secure a logical basis for faith, I will here cite certain authorities.

The monistic theory of the universe, the theory that One is All, and that All is One, that one Substance manifests itself as the seeming many elements of the material world — is of Hindu origin, and has been gradually winning its way into the thought of the western world for two hundred years. It is the foundation of all the Oriental philosophies, and of those of Descartes, Spinoza, Leibnitz, Schopenhauer, Hegel, and Emerson.

The reader who would dig to the philosophical foundations of this is advised to read Hegel and Emerson for himself.

In writing this book I have sacrificed all other considerations to plainness and simplicity of style, so that all might understand. The plan of action laid down herein was deduced from the conclusions of philosophy, it has been thoroughly tested, and bears the supreme test of practical experiment, it works. If you wish to know how the conclusions were arrived at, read the writings of the authors mentioned above, and if you wish to reap the fruits of their philosophies in actual practice, read this book and do exactly as it tells you to do.

The Author
-----------------------------------------------

I think he explains his intent plainly here, and as an aside, I also find it interesting that he mentions Hinduism as a source of his writings.

I'm not sure I'll be able to find the right words for this post, but I'm going to try.

When Mr. Focus first posted his thoughts and concerns he told us that he struggles with Wally's statement to get rid of the idea that there is a Diety (a "god") "whose will it is that you should be poor or whose purposes may be served by keeping you in poverty." And he explained that the reason why he feels this way is because of his background and beliefs regarding wealth and having money. He told us that "this attitude came from an odd combination of influences from Christianity and various liberal sources," and that this "attitude that wealth is evil has nearly ruined (him)."

Upon reading his words, it made me sad. First because no one should have to feel that his life is ruined, and second, because his feelings were in part caused by something that he believes Christianity has contributed to. The belief that being a Christian means that you shouldn't want money...it's evil...God doesn't approve of us having that kind of desire.

Is Mr. Focus the only person to have these types of feelings toward Christianity? No, there are millions of people who share a similar belief. And even among those who don't profess to be Christian, there are ones who believe in a "God" who they think wants people to be poor and remain in poverty because, as Wally says, "his purposes are served" by such.

I think that when we become aware of the principles behind SOGR it opens our mind to something new...something that we haven't been exposed to...at least knowingly. And this new way of thinking gives rise to a lot of questions. It challenges our previous set of beliefs and way of thinking. And for some of us, it makes us think about our religious background and the belief system that accompanies it.

I know that this forum is not meant to be the backdrop for religious debate. But, for someone like me, who truly believes in Christianity and the Bible, it hurts my heart to see it get blamed for something that it is not responsible for. I cannot help but speak up in its defense. If it offends anyone, I apologize for that. But, it doesn't alter my stand on it.

I'm beginning to think that maybe this forum is not the place for me to be right now. I totally believe in the principles that SOGR outlines. I derive much satisfaction and pleasure and help from a lot of the postings and truly appreciate all that Rebecca has done to help promote a healthy way of thinking that will cause increase and abundance to all who come in contact with it. I can honestly say I have benefited from it and hope that I will continue along this path.

But, my faith, first and foremost, lies in God and what I believe to be his inspired word, the Bible. I think I just tend to look at things...this forum included...with my eyes focused on God's promises and it causes me to speak out when maybe this isn't the ideal place to do that.

I know Rebecca edited the preface of the SOGR book and she has told us her reasons for doing so. I do have a bit of a problem with that because she has removed some of Wally's words and references to certain religious teachings. To me, it seems like it's slanted now towards Christianity and there's no doubt that Wally quoted many, many times from the Bible. Yet, when the topic comes up or scriptures start to get quoted, people get resistant to it. I guess it doesn't really matter, but I can't help but wonder, that if Wally would have written some of the thoughts about religion and such that have been posted throughout these forums, would they be accepted as truth?

I think that if Wally were alive today, he would be happy that so many people are availing themselves of the words he has written. But, he was just a man who came to realize the power our thinking can really have and wrote about it. And I believe that's how he would have liked to be portrayed.

Anyway, I think I'm just going to take a break for awhile and keep my mouth closed. I don't want to offend anyone and maybe my passion gets in the way of it all.

Let me clarify something here if I may, and I know this is straying further from MrFocus's original post, but in a way, it's also in keeping with it.

The point of this forum, I believe, is not to exclude people of any religion, or set of religious beliefs, be they Christian, Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, etc.

The reason for my requoting the preface was to show that the principles of SOGR do not lie in the exclusive province of any "one" religion.

Being from India myself, and before I knew of the preface, it struck me how Wattles' description of God or the Formless was similar to what was described in the Hindu texts.

I suppose I could use this to promote Hinduism, especially since Wattles himself cites it in the SOGR preface as no less than a foundational authority for his concept of God, but that would be making the same mistake.

I myself have quoted from the Bible in some of my posts, both public and private.

It is my belief that all religions are tributaries leading to one Source, and are in part divine and in part man made, and no one has a monopoly on the Truth. I realize this runs contrary to some people's strongly held religious beliefs.

I believe that was also Wattles' intent, since he obviously draws from the "divine" aspects of both Eastern and Western religious thought in his books.

It is the "man made" stuff that gets to be a problem (and the source of resistance and much disagreement, as Focus and so many others have pointed out over and over again), and may in part be a reason for Rebecca making her point to not get caught up in talking about scriptures for the sake of.

The intent of this forum is, or should not be to promote any one religion, but to discuss overarching spiritual principles of how to live well, which is in the end, what Wattles talks about.

That said, I think it can be agreed that people from all religions are welcome here, and obviously there is common ground.

Jay

Dear Mr Focus,

The fact that you are here and have the courage to share with us your feelings & challenges is evidence that you have reached a great level of growth, maturity & yes accomplishment.


Speaking from experience, I am 41 (although I may act like I'm 30),The years from 30-present have been a tremendous awakening for me. I relish them.

Celebrate, do not berate yourself. From where I sit you are on the right path, the certain path my friend.

Remember the best time to plant an oak tree to go it big and strong was 20 years ago, the second best time is NOW!

Cheers,

Coach Mark,

Focus,

I apologize for getting off track from your original post, but that sometimes happens when responding to other posts and remarks.

You are exactly where you should be, and there are no mistakes. It may be difficult for you to accept right now, and sometimes it's also difficult for me to accept when things get rough.

But it is the truth nonetheless.

Someone said on this thread that it would've been great if they had this stuff 10 years ago, but the fact is, maybe they wouldn't have been as receptive to it then.

So, go forward as best you can. The past is done and there's nothing to change what already happened. Matter of fact, some have even argued that time itself is an illusion, and that we already have everything we want, but just don't realize it.

Jay

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Focus:

quote:

You must get rid of the last vestige of the old idea that there is a Deity whose will it is that you should be poor or whose purposes may be served by keeping you in poverty.

Hi there! I'm new to the forums here, though I'm not new to The Science of Getting Rich. I first found the book online a few years ago. I've read it a few times, but it wasn't until last night that I decided I want to take the book seriously. I've been very dissatisfied with my life lately, and after a period of personal reflection I decided SoGR was the way to go.

The problem: I really have to struggle to except the idea from the quoted passage above. (It from the beginning of chapter five, as I'm sure some of you know.) All of my life I've surrounded myself with people who don't value striving for wealth. Of course there is a certain hypocrisy involved--they (we) all want wealth, but working too hard to get it (much less thinking about it all the time) has always been considered immoral. This attitude came from an odd combination of influences from Christianity and various liberal sources.

The attitude that wealth is evil has nearly ruined me. When I look at the past ten years of my life (I'm 30 now) I see a man that has accomplished almost nothing. This aggravates me to no end, since I can say without exaggeration that I am more talented and intelligent than many people in many ways. But like Wattles said, "many people who have great talent remain poor, while others who have very little talent get rich." (Chapter 2)

I'm sick of not living up to my potential. I'm sick of not contributing anything that I value to the world. It is my sincere hope that through the application of the principles in The Science of Getting Rich that I can become a person I respect, and that I enjoy being.

And so, you can expect to hear from me on these forums now and then. I'll share my experiences, and I'll also be looking forward to hearing from others.

Have a good one...

Mr Focus

Thank you for your post, this was something I needed to read. I have'nt posted comments in the forum in quite sometime. However, I can truly relate to how you feel about live an the lack of accomplishment or progress you feel you have made this far.

So many things you said fit me well. After reading your post and finding out that you too live in missouri. I really felt a connection. I hav ebeen told all my life I'm intelligent. And sure I do believe i have intelligence. However, one on my problems is focus. And it kills me that I am like this. I get bored or distracted from time to time which in return stops progress. And sometime things seem so easy. I begin a process, then forget about or return to it days, weeks, or even months later.

I 'm not sure how to overcome what I see as my problems. Do days are better than other but the consistancy is lacking. I have so many ideals and thoughts running through my head it is hard to get a hold on to what I really want to do. What was asked what to I want to do? All I know is "I want to make money."

Lifelab 7 suggest we refocus our thoughts when negative feelins such as worry, competitiveness, envy , fear etc.. entires our mind. We should ask ourself " Would I be willing to have this thought manifest into solid form or a real effect in my in the next three minuts?"

I would like to share on last thought with you. Before I sat down at my computer. I was'nt sure what I was going to do. And in reality my spirits was not good nor bad. However, Just as I began typing the above paragraph. My spirit began to feel much better.

Thank You,

James

What part of Missouri are you from? And I will make an effort to visit to forum more often. THIS HELP MY DAY. AND IT IS NOT A BAD DAY THAT ALL OF YOU. Now I wll read other comments to this post. THANKS

Hello Mr Focus and everyone else

Something that Rebecca often says is that 'it takes what it takes' to get yourself fully in the SOGR swing. I read this thread with great interest because, after 14 months of Wattling, I've finally 'graduated' and started on a much bigger CMI than I could ever have dreamed of. And, as you will see if you look at my posts, I've had quite a journey, where 'bad' things turned out to be very efficient teachers.

One of the things I had to deal with very early on were beliefs that were installed in childhood by a very Christian (in my case Catholic) upbringing.


In my case, I had to do a lot of 'unlearning' of certain messages before I could move forward. Not 'unlearning' the 'real' Christian messages - which, by the way, sit perfectly comfortably with the basic tenets of any other religion - but 'unlearning' the 'control' messages put there by other folk. It was hard and it was unpleasant, and boy am I glad that now I've done it. You cannot imagine what a pleasant shock it was when I read Wally's words! Suddenly being 'rich' was allowed! It was ok and God (whoever or whatever he/she/it is) even WANTED me to be rich! I'd grown up with messages about rich=greedy, being satisfied with what you've been given and don't ask for more, asking for more is a sin etc etc.

All I want to convey here is that if the subject of religion does come up from time to time, by all means let's keep the discussion to SOGR. But please may I crave the indulgence of some here in asking that those who really have some serious work to do in that area are allowed to do it and to ask for help when they need it.

quote:

I have so many ideals and thoughts running through my head it is hard to get a hold on to what I really want to do.

How many different thoughts, total, are we talking about? To put it another way, how long can you go on thinking different thoughts, before repeating?

I doubt, for example, that in a day there are no two thoughts the same.

Write down your thoughts - at least the outlines of them, what subject, what it's about. After a while you'll notice, "Hey, that one's already in the list." After a while longer you'll find that ALL of your thoughts are already in the list. In other words you're just repeating a cycle.

The next step is to DEVELOP the thoughts instead of re-thinking each thought at a beginning level.

Bureaucrats have a saying, "Touch each piece of paper only once." That's an antidote to the habit, which develops otherwise, of looking at a piece of paper, not deciding to do anything with it, putting it back in the IN-box, then looking at another piece of paper, etc. I think that's what you're doing with your list of thoughts: touching each one repeatedly but not doing anything with it.

So a disciplined bureaucrat touches a piece of paper and DOES something with it, to get it out of the IN-box and into the OUT-box. You, similarly, will develop each thought and take it to the next step, whatever that might be. Your written list will be the foundation. Write each thought (the ones that are worth developing) at the top of a fresh piece of paper, and leave room for its further development.

quote:

All I want to convey here is that if the subject of religion does come up from time to time, by all means let's keep the discussion to SOGR. But please may I crave the indulgence of some here in asking that those who really have some serious work to do in that area are allowed to do it and to ask for help when they need it.

I have no problems with this, my hope is that the indulgence being asked for here is not just for Christianity, but for other faiths as well. Like say, if a Muslim wants to discuss Islam on this board.

quote:

my hope is that the indulgence being asked for here is not just for Christianity, but for other faiths as well. Like say, if a Muslim wants to discuss Islam on this board.

Well, why ever not? Actually it never occurred to me that others would not be welcome. It's not the 'flavour' of religion or anything else - just the need to release old patterns, however they were installed.

Hello fellow geniuses
May I just make my little point my two penn'as we say up here in the north of England.

Until I started to understand SOGR I had no religion. I was aganostic. I believed in something but I didn't know what. I almost hated all religions for throwing their beliefs at me. Now they just go straight over my head. Except that is the bits that fit with what I now believe. ie what Mr Wattles has taught us.

Love and success to all
Gwen

Please God, let this thread die.

Please.