I LIKE that summary!

I agree. That last post was thought provoking, Condor, and sums up this thread very nicely.

quote:

Originally posted by Condor:Also he say:

The person who can sincerely THANK God for the things which as yet he owns only in imagination has real faith. He will get rich. He will cause the creation of whatever he wants.

I agree that sincere gratitude for things yet to come is KEY. But I have a question. How can a person KNOW whether or not they are being “Sincerely Thankful”?

It seems to me, we can know our level of sincerity by how we FEEL. If this is true, then, it seems to me, it still comes down to how we feel.

Hi Phil:

As I told you before, your question just opened up de box and thanks for that.

I've been thinking about all of this about gratitude and these are my conclusions:

As you state and Mr. Wattles confirm in the SOGR, GRATITUD IS A FEELING...a feeling...

Feeling is a byproduct and not a cause. Feelings are caused by thoughts or thoughts in the form of images in our minds.

But also thoughts are the results of our beliefs or convictions which are at a subtle level than emotions and thoughs, so real gratitud is base on convictions or beliefs that we sustain. Let me elaborate about this:

According to PG LL17 to LL19 there are three levels of gratitud:

a) Gratitud for the good in our life.(That is easy to be grateful for)

b) Gratitude for something that looks not so good in our life.(That is a little more difficult)

c)A continual state of thanksfulness. ( which is the highest level of gratitude)How we can attatain this high level of gratitud and be sincere about it not just faking?

Because Gratitude is a feeling, we can not force gratitude into us but only by changing our thoughts and at a deeper level, changing our convictions that change our thoughts and this is what I want to talk about it.

Our feeling of gratitude can only be changed and be sincere if we have convictions that support that state of gratitud, otherwise is just a fake of gratitude and I'm just pretending to be thanksful. That is not effective and brings no positive results in whatever we want and of course no good feelings.

It is my conviction that a truly state of gratitud can only be achieved by FAITH.

Faith in the existence of a primary substance from which and by which, the universe is made and it is friendly to our desires that leads us to growth into more life and support us in causing the creation of everything we want.

If we can cause the creation of anything we want, we have no needs because we have it all and that give us a feeling of joy, security, plenty and happiness. The only way we can feel total thanksfulness.

There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made...
A person can form things in his toughts and by impressing his toughts...can cause the thing he thinks about to be created.

This is a feeling of POWER...ABSOLUTE POWER...

The conviction of the existence of the formless substance and its friendliness is essential to sincere gratitud.

CONVICTION is key:

We can have a conviction by indisputable scientific knowledge, like the Law of Gravity is already proved by scientific methods.

But we can also have a conviction by faith which is not scientific knowledge, but a conclusion that we arrive after enough and sufficient scientific evidence that point into that direction.

Please do not confuse faith with superstition which is a form of faith but the difference is that it is based on false or insufficient scientific evidence.

I would recomend some bonus send by Rebecca that helped me arive to this conclusions:

"The Lazy Way to Success
-- How to do nothing and accomplish everything"

You guys have to find it in the book...take a look at this preview:

http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net/lazypreview.pdf

And also at The Lazy Way to Success

Thank you Guys, I would like to here your comments...

Hi Condor,

The only comment I have at this time, regarding what you wrote, is about ‘conviction’ and ‘faith.’ (I’m not disagreeing with you, just elaborating a bit.)

It seems to me, sometimes conviction and faith can be had by simply consciously choosing between two opposing choices. For example, on the idea of the Universe as friend or foe. It seems, we have a choice in the matter. We can either choose to believe the Universe is friendly to us, and always wanting us to experience more of the life we really want. Or, we can choose to believe the Universe is unfriendly, and we will have to fight and struggle for every inch of gain we want.

It seems to me, either choice can be ‘proved’ by those that adhere to one or the other. But, it seems to me, most sensible to go with the idea that the Universe is friendly.

Also I do like very much this passage from the linked article:

Success,.. “is simply a matter of finding the right angle – and the angle for greater accomplishment, I have found, is always in the direction of greater ease and effortlessness.

Success is inversely proportional to hard work.” (from page 42)

Phil

quote:

Success is inversely proportional to hard work

Excuse my ignorance, but even Google translate is not helping me.
Could tell me the meaning of these words?

I think it means the less hard work, the more succes? But I don't know for sure.

I bought that book last night off reading the linked excerpt and I LOVE it - highly recommended, it's about $13 and comes with lots of bonus materials and audio as well.

quote:

I think it means the less hard work, the more succes? But I don't know for sure.

That is the right translation, and weird as it may sound that is the point the author makes: he gives an example of trying to move a heavy metal safe left in an office space (real life story from his past) and compares the use of muscle-power with that of wits, and then he talks further - this might not sit well with everyone - about how, IF sheer back-breaking slog was the key to success, manual labourers would be at the top of the tree, earnings-wise and with job security, and all the other aspects of success. And that this very obviously is NOT the case!

Some of my family ARE manual labourers in trades, whose dedication and skill I respect highly, and they do indeed have an almost pathological fascination with HARRRRD work, which I posted about recently, so while his statements aren't intended to diminish anyone's CONSCIOUS choices, eg to manually do a task because you enjoy it, they do make a lot of sense if you're someone for whom the term "hard work" isn't all that... erm, appealing!

As an aside, it's not just translating from another language that can be tricky, either - when I realised how Leslie's experience parsed the phrase "going the extra mile" as something unappealing (I was thinking of the extra scenery you'd see!) it made me realise we see so many words differently, like "action" "work" and even "belief."

Rereading this, I remembered another quote from Wally.

"Intelligent substance will make things for you, but it will not take things away from someone else and give them to you."

I think this supports your view that,

quote:

we can conclude that the Formless Substance is actually JUDGMENTAL in wheather your thoughts are coming from the CREATIVE and not from the competitive mind.

If they are coming from the competitive mind they are totally disregarded, ignored.
Not in agreement with its higher purpose of "More Life to All". So they are dismissed.

Rebecca says that the formless gives you what you put your "focus, faith and feeling" into -- regardless of whether you want it or not.

So, for instance if you want to take your friend's girlfriend, this is clearly competitive thinking. But I don't think the universe DISMISSES the desire. I think it tries to give it to you in a way that doesn't take away from some one else.
Also it only reads the underlying beliefs and feelings attached to the desire -- which are sometimes more about pain and lack then they are about joy. Do want your friend to be hurt? Then the universe will give you pain. Are you wallowing in ENVY or LONELINESS? Then the universe will give you more reasons to feel envy or loneliness. Do you want a girl like that? Then the universe will offer you a girl like that. (Of course, if you're obsessed with THAT PARTICULAR girl, you probably won't notice all the others the universe is throwing in your path.)

So in a way, I agree that being in Creative Mind is important, but not because the universe ignores you otherwise. I think we need to be in creative mind in order to properly NOTICE and CONSCIOUSLY CONTROL what the universe is giving us.

I hope these added ideas will clarify this a little more.

Love and blessings,
Rachel

quote:

Originally posted by Rachel:
Rereading this, I remembered another quote from Wally.

"Intelligent substance will make things for you, but it will not take things away from someone else and give them to you."

I think this supports your view that,

quote:

we can conclude that the Formless Substance is actually JUDGMENTAL in wheather your thoughts are coming from the CREATIVE and not from the competitive mind.

If they are coming from the competitive mind they are totally disregarded, ignored.
Not in agreement with its higher purpose of "More Life to All". So they are dismissed.

Rebecca says that the formless gives you what you put your "focus, faith and feeling" into -- regardless of whether you want it or not.

Hi Rachel:

This is just the way I see it and for me, it makes a lot of sense:

The Universe delivers abundance of wathever you ask for, that is the way it is structured and any though is interpreted as an asking.

If you ask for lack or loneliness it will bring you abundance of lack and loneliness. Remember your feelings are a by product of thoughts, most of the time unconscious toughts.

That is why we have to take care of our thoughts and be sure they are positive (Thoughts that brings good feelings) so we can get good feelings in abundance.



Now, for me, there is a difference between the Created Universe and the Source, they are two diferent things both connected, being the Source the cause of the created universe.

This premise established I am going to explain:

We as humans, have a creative power of our own and we create from our own thoughts, independent of if they are in agreement with the higher purpose of the Source or not.

When they are in disagreement you can be sure they are coming from the competitive mind and not in harmony with the higher purpose of "more life to all" in that case, you are creating on your own and by your own limited power.

But if you want to engage the Source in your Creative Purpose and have the total support of the entire forces of the Universe and more, you need to be in agreement with the higher purpose of the Source wich is "more life to all" otherwise you will be on your own.

Now this is very important to me and I have learned it in this trip.
WE HAVE TO BE COUNSCIOUS of what we are creating, because we are always creating whether consciuously or unconsciously.

The Ring Bell is our feelings that tell us of some unwanted thoughts.
Toughts that needs to be replaced by more healthy thoughts and choosen counsciously and in agreement with what we want.
And hopefully also in agreement with the higher purpose of the Creative Force.



For me this is the purpose of the SOGR:

Teach us how to think properly meaning THE CERTAIN WAY and as a consecuence, ACT IN THE CERTAIN WAY.

Teach us HOW to Be in a continues state of Consciouslycreating what is more beneficial to us and to the universe.

Teach us to COOPERATE with the Source in his higher purpose of "more life to all" and then, we will be able to engage all the forces of the Universe and be able to create whatever we want and then nothing we will ever need.

Just my point of view and interpretation.

Thanks to all of you and to the Source...
This is a beautiful day, be glad and Rejoice...

Condor

quote:

we can conclude that the Formless Substance is actually JUDGMENTAL in wheather your thoughts are coming from the CREATIVE and not from the competitive mind.

If they are coming from the competitive mind they are totally disregarded, ignored.
Not in agreement with its higher purpose of "More Life to All". So they are dismissed.

That's certainly NOT my understanding. If competitive mind thoughts were "dismissed," our world would be a far different place. And Wally says, "EVERY thought of form, held in thinking substance, causes the creation of the form ..."

To me, the Formless is the exact opposite of judgmental: Whatever you give your focus, faith, and feeling to will come into your experience -- whether you want it or not, whether it's "good" for you or others or not.

The point of staying in creative mind rather than competitive is because that's what brings us joy, in the moment and long-term. And what we create/attract from THAT place is always wonderful.

Hi Rebecca:

I think, our apearences of disagreement are only appearences that can be easely solved.

I think the conflict of interpretation is coming from two different World Views that we both sustain if not, please correct me.



This is an statement from the summary of SOGR:

quote:

The SOGR Chapter 17:

A person form things in his thought, and by impressing his thought upon formless substance can cause the thing he thinks about to be created.

In order to do this, a person must pass from the competitive to the creative mind. Otherwise he can not be in harmony with formless intelligence, which is always creative and never competitive in spirit.

A person may come into full harmony with the formless substance by entertaining a lively and sincere gratitude for the blessings it bestows upon him. Gratitude unifies the minds of individuals with the intelligence of substance, so that a person's thoughts are received by the formless.

A person can remain upon the creative plane only by uniting himself whith the formless intelligence through a deep and continous feeling of gratitude.

Thinking about the two first paragraphs:

In order to do this...implies a requirement of passing from competitive to creative otherwise there is no harmony with the Formless.

From the third paragraph implies that harmony is requiered for your thoughts to be received by the formless.

If not received, they are dismissed, I don't see any other way to interpret this statements but that the Formless actually JUDGE between COMPETITIVE and CREATIVE thoughts.


This brings an appearance of disagreement but let me elaborate:

Some people sustain the World View that the Universe is the same thing as the Creator this is called the Panteistic World View.

Other people sustain the World View that the Created Universe and the Creator are two different things. This is the point sustained by Jewish and Christians and also Muslims. It is called the Theistic World View.

Mr. Wattless, as a Christian, is expected to sustain this last World View and I think he is.



From the Theistic view:

Yes the Created Universe respond to your thoughts regarding if there is harmony or not with the creator but if you are in harmony with the Creator you will engage a more higher power than just the forces of the Created Universe, you will engage the power of the Source or the Creator.

And I believe this is the point that Mr. Wattless speak in the SOGR.



From the Panteistic View:

Yes the Universe also respond to your thoughts and being in harmony or not is indiferent only because it makes you feel better and that's it.

But I don't think that was what Mr. Wattless had in mind. Remember he was a Christian.

This principle of Thought over matter is known for a long time in the Christian World even before than Mr. Wattless book.

The base you can find it in here long before Mr. Wattless:

quote:

Therefore I say unto you, whatever things you desire, when you pray, believe that you will receive them, and you shall have them. These are words of Jesus of Nazareth according to (Mark 11:24

I don't know of any other texts of any ancient book where you can find the same concept.
If you know any, please let me know.

Any way, from my theistic point of view YES I agree with you: The Created Universe respond to your thought wheather or not they are in harmony agreement or disagreement with the Creator and you get from the Universe Whatever the quality of your thoughts are you projecting.

Regarding the World View we can sustain, the lessons learned here are equally valuable.

Thanks

Condor

My perspective is that it isn't the Formless that "judges" your endeavours, whether you're working Cmpetitively or Creatively I mean - just that if you place your Focus, Faith and Feeling on Competition - you will attract Competition!

Meaning that suddenly resources SEEM limited, because you've created situations in which other people want a part of the same things as well.

Just my take on it and I'm certainly not any expert.

Wow, Condor. You really summed up those differences.

According to your definitions, I am a "Panteist" meaning that in my moments of enlightenment I feel strongly that I am part of a single consciousness that imagines, creates and embodies the entire universe.

I confess, the idea that the Creator is separate from the creation bothers me. The thought of God as a judgmental overseer has always seemed wrong to me. I understand that this is a common belief, but to me it seems like a competitive distortion of the fundamental truth that we are all one. I think that each of us is a character being played at by the single consciousness which is hiding from itself for the fun of creating anew.

The Law of Attraction and the Science of Getting Rich are wonderful descriptions of an idea that rings very true to me. Wally's writing seems to me to support the idea that we ARE the creator -- in the same way that a wave IS the ocean -- and as such our desires are the desires of the creator seeking fulfillment in a unique physical experience.

Frankly, I don't really get how anyone can accept the following statement and still think God is separate from us.

"Thought is the only power which can produce tangible riches from the formless substance. The stuff from which all things are made is a substance which thinks, and a thought of
form in this substance produces the form.
Original substance moves according to its thoughts; every form and process you see in nature is the visible expression of a thought
in original substance. As the formless stuff thinks of a form, it takes that form; as it thinks of a motion, it makes that motion.
That is the way all things were created."

Wally phrases a few things in traditional Theist vernacular, but most of what he wrote sounds very Panteist to me. Perhaps he did that on purpose so that all of us could follow his teachings without feeling that we are violating our personal beliefs.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I certainly respect everyone's right to choose their own beliefs.

Love and blessings,
Rachel

Some of my thoughts on this include the idea that Creation (that which we can perceive with our senses) is one aspect of God, and consciousness (what we think and feel) is another aspect of God, but neither is separate from the other. They are both aspects of the same thing, like water, steam and ice are aspects of the same thing.

Lately, from the information I'm finding, I'm coming to believe that the entire Universe is CONSCIOUSNESS, no matter what form (physical or thought or energy) it takes, and that each of us, and also plants, animals and rocks and sand, etc., as well as principles and stellar sub-atomic particle energies and systems, are all variations of the same consciousness.

And that, if Wattles were alive today, I imagine he might express his ideas differently than he did in the original SOGR or his other books.

Maybe consider how Gregg Braden puts it in this linked video.

The Science of Miracles - Part 1

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Lately, from the information I'm finding, I'm coming to believe that the entire Universe is CONSCIOUSNESS, no matter what form (physical or thought or energy) it takes, and that each of us, and also plants, animals and rocks and sand, etc., as well as principles and stellar sub-atomic particle energies and systems, are all variations of the same consciousness.

Have you read the Kybalion?

If anyone's interested, it's freely available as a PDF online, I found out about it via David Neagle's list of recommended reading, and it's an eye-opener but also makes perfect sense.

quote:

Mr. Wattless, as a Christian, is expected to sustain this last World View and I think he is.

Depends on how you define (and probably WHO is defining) "Christian." Wally was a New Thought Christian, and pretty clearly had a viewpoint quite different from any "traditional" sort of Christianity (which was probably why he was kicked out of the Methodist church). I wouldn't necessarily think that he saw a separation between Creator and created.

My take on his teaching is in the Practical Geniuses course, and sort of boils down to the idea that form and formless, material and spiritual, are just two sides of the same coin, and therefore that one can't exist without the other; just different aspects or manifestations of the same basic Energy.

quote:

Originally posted by Rachel:
Wow, Condor. You really summed up those differences.

According to your definitions, I am a "Panteist" meaning that in my moments of enlightenment I feel strongly that I am part of a single consciousness that imagines, creates and embodies the entire universe.


Frankly, I don't really get how anyone can accept the following statement and still think God is separate from us.

"Thought is the only power which can produce tangible riches from the formless substance. The stuff from which all things are made is a substance which thinks, and a thought of
form in this substance produces the form.
Original substance moves according to its thoughts; every form and process you see in nature is the visible expression of a thought
in original substance. As the formless stuff thinks of a form, it takes that form; as it thinks of a motion, it makes that motion.
That is the way all things were created."

Wally phrases a few things in traditional Theist vernacular, but most of what he wrote sounds very Panteist to me.
Rachel

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Some of my thoughts on this include the idea that Creation (that which we can perceive with our senses) is one aspect of God, and consciousness (what we think and feel) is another aspect of God, but neither is separate from the other. They are both aspects of the same thing, like water, steam and ice are aspects of the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Depends on how you define (and probably WHO is defining) "Christian." Wally was a New Thought Christian, and pretty clearly had a viewpoint quite different from any "traditional" sort of Christianity (which was probably why he was kicked out of the Methodist church). I wouldn't necessarily think that he saw a separation between Creator and created.

Thanks to all of you for your posts, especially you Rebecca because that allowed me to address a point which I consider fundamental:

Many people think and believe firmly that there is a contradiction between the Panteistic Worldview and the Theistic Worldview. Some people even think that they are opposites and that one excludes the other.

I don't belive they are. My Tesis sustain that they are acctually supplemental and one complement each other, they are both parts of a single bigger truth.

Because of what I said and what I am going to say. I could be expelled from many Christians Denominations for heressy just as Mr. Wallace, but fortunatelly I don't belong to any of those denominations.

The same way, I may be attached with the label of stuborn religious by many other panteists. Which also exists, and in a lot of bunches and consider themselves the owners of the holly truth, just the same way as those Christian Fundamentalist.



So I agree with you Rebecca, its a matter of defining what is the meaning of being a Christian.

Now, for what I read in your posts you are all concerned about separation between the creator and creation but if you read the definitions carefully they actually talk about two different things not necessarily separated. Separation is a conclusion you all arrived by your own I don't know why.

In the Panteistic View, The Universe is an abstract,big and all conected intelligent form, but in the Theistic View (Christian not Jewish) the concept of The Universe is the same abstract,big and all conected intelligent form but expanded and sepparated into parts:Creator, Connection, Creation and Flow of Energy that keeps everything alive an moving with the ultimate purpose of more life and increase.

In the Theistic Worldview, Creation and Creator are two different things but conected and dependent one to the other. The Creator is the cause, the created is the effect and the creation was born as an emanation and feeds from the energy of the creator fully dependent. You can disattach the creation from the creator but the creation actually will die of starvation and that is the concept.

In the Christian definition you can hear the words of Christ: I am the Vine and you are the Branches nobody can come to the Father but by me. In other words Christ the Jewish Messiah was the conection between the Creator and the Created forming one thing.

In the previous example, the Vine (Who is Christ)is firmly planted in the Soil (which is the Father, The creator, the Formless substance, The Infinite Intelligence, The cause of all causes). Christ is the Connection and the whole creation(The branches, all of us) is attached to the father. That is the Christian View.

I do not pretend you to accept it but is congruent and a definite conection and not separation.

In the Panteistic View, the image of the Father or the Son does not exist. It is just The Universe which is intelligent, is counscious, permeates everything and take different forms all of them united at the Unified Field (I you read the book The Lazy Way you will understand what I'm talking about).

The Theistic View add somenthing more to the definition of the Universe, the concept of the Father, the Son and the flow of energy which is the holy spirit that keeps everything conected.

By the way,historically speaking, the Panteistic World View is more ancient than the Theistic Worldview, so we can consider the Theistic Worldview as an evolution and a more elaborated vision of the Universe than the Panteistic point of view and not the other way around.

The panteistic worldview can be traced back to the most ancient civilizations and philosofies of China, long time before the first comunities of Jewish flourished in the land of Cannan.
So we can consider the Theistic View a more evolved concept of the Universe than the panteistic dinosaurs. (Sorry I coudn't help, I'm a Theistic and I'm having a blast, please don't blaim me)

I don't want to elaborate too much into this Christian Philosophy, it is not my intention to convert any one but to explain how both Worldviews supplement each other.

In the Theistic View the Universe takes the form of a personality that has a character that think, feel and is FRIENDLY (Friendly by the Christian Faith and AWESOME GOD,terrible and biase by the Jewish Faith) that can comunicate directly with his creation as if you were talking with a GOOD father (Unfortunately nowadays not too many fathers to be a good example).

For me, this adds to the total equation and make it more rich and comforting. As I said already I don't want to elaborate about it but there is ample evidence I mean Historical evidence that strongly points in this direction but that is a matter not in the scope of this post beside the fact, that is not polite to talk about this "religious preferences" in this forum.

Thanks to all of you guy, you don't know how much you help me to coordinate my own thoughts and how much I owe to you all.

Condor

quote:

Originally posted by Fountainbleu:
My perspective is that it isn't the Formless that "judges" your endeavours, whether you're working Cmpetitively or Creatively I mean - just that if you place your Focus, Faith and Feeling on Competition - you will attract Competition!

I don't think is a matter of judgement of your endevors...

I believe is a matter of your CHOICES...you will attract whatever you choose to focus on be it competitive or creative...

My point is that if you choose competitive thoughts you will attract competitive things and you won't be in harmony with the Formless (Creator)...so you will not be able to engage the higher power of creation that brings the formless and you will be creating by your own force...

In addition to that, you wont feel good because good feelings come from harmony within yourself and the formless...

But the Formless acctually JUDGE not your endevors but when it decides to support or not support your asking based on the quality of your thoughts which is COMPETITIVE or CREATIVE...

quote:

But the Formless acctually JUDGE not your endevors but when it decides to support or not support your asking based on the quality of your thoughts which is COMPETITIVE or CREATIVE...

IMO, if this were true, no one would ever create anything harmful to self or others. In my understanding and experience, the Formless (God/Universe/All The Mind There Is/Whatever Name Seems Right to You) always, ALWAYS says "Yes" to whatever it is you give your focus, faith, and feeling to -- whether it's what you want or not, whether it's "good for you" or not.

People create their reality from the competitive mind all the time. Nothing stops that from happening; nothing is judging or choosing whether or not to "support" those thoughts.

(In fact, I don't think of it as anything/anyone saying "yes," because it's just a Law of the universe, not a "being" judging or choosing anything for you. To me, judgment is a totally human practice.)

quote:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

To me, judgment is a totally human practice.)

Hi Rebecca:

I don't agree with this conclusion but I understand that it comes from the World View you have accepted as truth.

If you want to know more about my point of view I posted already and wrote my conclusions before.

I'm not saying anything different of what you are saying but obviously the appearances of disagreements are still there.

I understand that we all can agree to disagree I hope you can agree to that.

From my Worldview point I am able to see many things that people with others Worldviews are unable to see but that is ok. This is a matter of Choices.

All is a matter of Choices.

I just want to tell you that my experience with SOGR and the PG course has been amazings and my interaction with the forum has helped me to understand many things I coudn't grasp before.

I believe the most beneficiated in all of this has been myself.

For that I give you thanks

Of course we can disagree, Condor. We probably don't even have the same favorite flavor of ice cream. So what?

I don't really care what anyone else's world view is, actually. That's none of my business.

What I care about is the practical aspect: Does my way of believing -- and how I act because of that -- make life better for me and others?