Hi everyone

First let me just say, I make a lot of money. More than I can ever dream of spending. I trade financial markets, mostly the stockmarket.

The problem is, I feel extremely guilty. I don't feel I give value to anyone's life nor society. Yeah, I might not be a drain and I pay more taxes than most, but I don't see that as really adding value.

I've read the SOGR a dozen times and have thought about this days on end. I'm not a business person and have no desire to start a business. My skills are the markets, and they not only don't give value to anyone, they take away from people. The market is simply a battle between the bulls and bears. On the other side of every profitable trade I make, is someone who has lost money.

So I am after suggestions on how I could feel better about what I do. With the time I have (which is a lot), I've thought of studying finance or economics at university and maybe using my money to help those in poverty.

Anyway, please offer me advice, as at the moment I COMPETE and more often than not I win, and I am TAKING away from people. Only the skillful and strong survive on the markets; for people to make money, others have to lose it.

Whilst on the topic, are there any other investors or traders on the forums?

Thanks

Hi, swingmaster

Welcome to the forum.
I'm no expert on trading, I trade the forex market and I understand a bit how you feel.
But I believe trading it's all about choices and if we have a bear market and I don't pay attention and go against it I lose, somebody else with more skills will win.
I don't think you should feel guilty.

Hello Swingmaster,

I agree with Janete. You don't need to feel guilt at all.

What you have been doing so far has given you a lot of experience. It's up to you now to decide what you are going to do with this experience.

Just to give an example, you can offer newbies on the stockmarket advice that will improve the chance of them making money.

If you no longer wish to be a trader, think about what it is you would like to be doing. What can you give to other people that would make you feel good?

I'm sure you have lots of other qualities and when you combine some or most of them, new ideas will probably come to mind.

Having said all that, there might be some fellow traders in this community who can make some suggestions from a professional point of view.

Keep us posted. It seems you have a great journey ahead!

Lucky
www.thinkcreatesucceed.com

Hallo Swingmaster,

First of all, welcome.
I read your post and am confused. You write that you don't give any use value to anyone. I know nothing about financial markets but is it not that if the shares go up then a company is better off, making the employees therefore more sure of their work. If its say tea shares, then do the people that pick the tea leaves not benefit from the trading at better prices? Correct me if I am way off base, but to me that's adding use value to a lot of lives, even though it is indirectly.
Your skills are the financial markets and how to trade very sucessfully, what if, like Lucky suggests, you help young traders, train them so to speak, or share your knowledge and know how with students while teaching a course at university. Or via a website, offer tips and tricks of the trade.
What I have learned from SOGR is that no-one becomes rich if they don't think and act in the certain way(the ones that do on the competative plain do but always have to struggle to remain so and I don't "see" that in your post, rather the reverse, you struggle with the money you make as if you don't deserve it), so you must be doing a lot right and in the certain way, so don't beat yourself up about it. I think there maybe some underlying beliefs in your mind that makes you feel guilty. What about learning some relaxation technique, or trying out E.F.T., it could help to figure out why you feel guilty. Don't always look at what you appear to see, look beneath there at the truth.
Hope this helps a little and I wish you good luck.

Hi swingmaster,

First of all welcome to the SOGR-forum, it is always nice to meet new people!

You can do a search on this forum to find more posts about the stock-market, as I recall there have been many discussions about it.

Second, If you feel that you are competing and that goes against what you feel is right, stop it. There is something else for you.
If it is just because you read that it is wrong to compete and it is not truly what is inside you, continue. But you know what is in you heart and you should never go against your heart. Everybody has a life-purpose and it is just a matter of looking for what is yours.
HOW? The course of practical geniuses is amazing! I can really recommend that to you, since you have enough time. It is going deeper into the subject of SOGR and about you.

Looking to hearing from you again!

Have a wonderful day.

ROOS

Hello Swingmaster,

it was very interesting for me to read your words, because I also recognized, that I have the same problem for years. When analyzing my life, the main reason for not as beeing successful as I should be is that I would feel guilty when getting rich.

The SOGR confirmed me already, that my thinking is rubbish. But it is very difficult for me to get a new point of view. When I remember about my childhood, money was always a problem. My father was a poor, hard working man and the earned money was only enough for a simple living. We never made holiday trips, we had no car, we even did not have a telephone and color tv till the mid 80s! And my parents had always so much fear about their life! They had fears about possible debts, unemployment, economic crisis and maybe they had fear about the possibility to have a happy life. But all people who were rich and made their fortune, were not good in my parents eyes. In the same way, that they were unable to imagine a better life for themselve, they were unable to grant us children the view for a successful living without guiltiness.

My parents died when I was sixteen, so I was forced to master my life for myself. I went to the university to study economics and before I was 25 i run my own company. I thought that I could be very successful. But the more I earn, the more I spent. I spent money not for my own purpose, not at all. I spent it for a new office, for my very expensive employees, but not for my family. Today I know, the reason is that I am still not ready to be rich. When this sounds funny to you - you maybe can imagine how tragic it is for me! Even when I buy a lottery ticket - deep in myself I hope not to win. The absurd reason is - maybe - that it would not be earned money for my hard work! It is quite similar to your position: You win, but your feeling is not comfortable for you. It says that you stole money from someone other. But our mind (and also SOGR) says that this rubbish! We must find a way to make our heart also believe about a very new point of view.

For now about two years I have started again to study strategies and technical analysis for trading in financial markets. I was a student when i get the first time in contact with the financial markets. At this time trading was a very interesting dream, but it was not worth striving for, because it was not work in my eyes. It was the problem I mentioned above: It was not imaginable for me beeing a trader. And it is still a problem for me, that the profit amount of a successful trade has nothing to do with the time or work that I put in before. The gain depends on the margin amount (the capital) and the risk, but it would have nothing to do with a workers hourly rate. Sometimes I think, that I am still the little boy 25 years ago. In that situation it is obviously for me that I could not be a winner. Therefore I need a change to be successful. SOGR is not a religion to me, but it gave me some very good hints to solve the problem.

In real you must be a very happy man. With the money you have made, you also got some very needful new freedom degrees for your life. You can decide for yourself what to do and you can make many good things with your money. I do not believe in politicians. Instead they are always talking about a better future, they do not have the free financial resources to make dreams come true. It would need many rich people, who are willing to use their money to make the world a better place to live.

And don't forget: When you make profits the next time, it's from those who are willing to loose. And when they are not loosing money at the futures markets, they will find other ways to loose it.

Welcome, Swingmaster.

So you are the one I sent all my money to. It is so nice to finally meet you

I have been trading mutuals, stocks, bonds, options and currencies. Have been successful a few times but losing money most of the time. I never felt ripped off by the other person because even at a loss, they were actually rescuing me from a position I never should have entered in the first place. So thank you for taking me off the hook!

Guilt is not a helpful emotion. I suggest placing a market order for those shares. As for competition, I don't see it that way. When I am trading, I am only competing with myself. To make myself a more skillful and wiser trader. Working from a plan and a system to increase my wealth.

Happy trading,
Caroline

Congratultions on your success in the markets!

I trade stocks. I do not feel I cheat anyone. I buy and sell, as do others, and while some do make losing trades, as I do at times, others do make money. Most of my trades are in retirement account and I do want to be as successful as possible in my trades. One of my brothers, who also trades stocks, and I share information and in this way help each other.

I see absolutely no need for guilt as the stock market is a vital part of the financial system.

Hi Swingmaster,

Congratulations on your success at the stockmarket! Many of us are still in the process of learning to attract money/riches, that is why we are learning SOGR.

Regarding your statement quoted below:

quote:

First let me just say, I make a lot of money. More than I can ever dream of spending. I trade financial markets, mostly the stockmarket.

`Spending' infers that we are thinking in a limited way - merely about self and immediate family. In such a case you are absolutely right when you speak of `having more money than you can spend'. All of us can satisfy our personal desire for food, shelter, comfort and luxuries with the first $ Million or so.

But when we think of a world purpose, then even Warren Buffet or Bill Gates by themselves are not rich enough to carry out all the projects that are needed in various parts of the world.

I personally would be very grateful when I can attract an income stream of millions or even billions - because I can put it to good use on world projects that I'm passionate about, e.g.:

* Research into economical, renewable energy sources. This will help us to stop burning fossil fuels and polluting the atmosphere with greenhouse gases thereby causing global warming.


* Introducing HPV or human powered vehicles again. I read about it more than 25 years ago in the Reader's Digest, where it is possible to make 4 seater vehicles of teardrop design and light materials, that is operated by one person `cycling'. Very good acceleration and high speeds were achieved; where the fuel needed for a 20 mile drive is just a slice of bread! The driver can also have exercise while commuting. Though technically viable this was not put into production because of the vested interests of oil and automobile industry.

* A global electrical grid system (proposed by Buckminster Fuller) that would link the eastern & western hemispheres, thereby doubling the amount of electric energy available - without the need for new power stations!

Similarly, there are hundreds of other worthwhile projects that you can fund, if you desire to. So then there should be no guilt as to your income stream. You become just a channel of the universe to spread goodness; you can become a good steward of wealth!

Many blessings!

Gopi

"Choose to create your own reality!"

Swingmaster,

Let's look at your statement about not adding value.
1. If you're not there to accept the risk on an IPO, how will the company raise the funds needed to take their business to the next level? How will they be able to afford to add the 100, or 1000, new employees without those funds? I think I perceive value in that. By the way, there's nothing competitive about that process, it's one of the best examples of creativity, creating NEW wealth!
2. When you buy a stock you are enabling someone else to get rid of it. That may be a very large value for them at that time.

Those are just two examples. Also, you need to look at your assumption that someone is losing money when you make money. If I buy a stock at $20, the person I'm buying it from may have bought it at $5 or at $100, I have no way to know. But either way you may be providing a huge value. The person who just solidified her $15 gain is thrilled with the sale. The person with the loss is also thrilled because they really needed the tax write-off. That's value in my book.

The problem you have is your mindset (don't worry, we all have various degrees of that around here). Change your mind. You're taking nothing and the fact that you trade adds value by allowing others to have a market.

I also recommend you do a search on trading. There was a lot of discussion on the topic about a year or so ago.

Best wishes.

Hi Swingmaster,

I would start working on losing the guilt. Why do you feel guilty? I'm wondering if there's something from your life that has made you feel this way. Have you witnessed or suffered poverty and somehow think that it is wrong for you to be doing so well while others are poor?

I would also start giving thanx to God for what you have, start enjoying the money you earn instead of feeling guilty. Every time I receive some money, I give some away and it makes me feel great. This way, I am giving value to others and it is helping money to flow easily into my life. The more I have, the more I can give and the more wonderful I feel.

You should always go by gut instinct and if your gut is really telling you that you are on the wrong path, then stop. But my hunch here is that you have to find out where these feelings of guilt are coming from, examine them, then throw them away, give thanx and start to enjoy the abundance that is flowing into your life.

Angel hugs x

I think it sounds great! And that is also one of my goals, to learn and make a great living from Trading. Since I added that to my CMI a few weeks ago all these different courses and info and books have been showing up on my doorstep like 'magic'
I know so little about it at the moment, but I'm learning and loving it! Maybe education is something you could get involved in. You're obviously good at what you do and could offer good advice to others. I would certainly love to learn a few things from you!
Maybe you do so well and make money is because thats where your focus is and others may be focusing on the loss assocationed with trading? I know since I've told a few people that I want to get involved in it the general reaction has been "thats so risky, people always lose money on that". Not exactly very positive sounding is it?! I know when I really get started in it, I won't be focusing on losing my money because I know if 1 do, I proberly will lose!

You need a dream beyond a dream, you've obviously accomplished one dream, now you need another one, if you've got the free time, than study is great. No knowledge is ever wasted.

Good luck,

Shannon

Swingmaster

I too trade financial markets whether it be stocks, commodities, futures but am no where’s near as successful as you are. You have a gift that all traders strive for and have no need to feel guilty but instead grateful.

When I sell a stock that is the time it seems to go up, when I buy that is the time it seems to go down and yet someone is at the other end of those trades making money on my mistakes. Do I feel angry at those who are making money, no, on the contrary I admire those people for they have a gift us traders have been striving for years to achieve.

It is not entirely true when you say “On the other side of every profitable trade I make, is someone who has lost money.” Many times I have sold a stock with a 5% or 10% profit happy that someone has bought it, sure it may have continued higher making that trader even more money but I was happy with my piece of the pie.

You see my current job requires me to travel for weeks at a time, being away from my family in the process year after year after year. This is one of the reasons I joined SOGR as my vision and passion is to become a successful trader making obscene amounts of money in the markets as everyone has the right to become rich. In the evenings in my hotel room I slowly go through the SOGR course, I study charts, subscribe to investment newsletters, trading programs trying to find that “something” that “mind set” to let me begin to achieve my goals so I won’t have to travel anymore, so I can be at home with my family and the financial freedom I no we are all entitled to.

You have a gift that so many of us traders envy. If you wish to feel better about yourself maybe you could teach other people how to trade as I know you’ll find them lined outside your door if you so wish to do so. I for one would travel to the land down under and be honored to be your first student.

Whenever you feel guilty think gratitude and you will automatically fell better about yourself swingtrader.

The very best to you in your goals and endeavors.

Cheers

Martin

Okay, Swingmaster, you asked for suggestions on how to feel better about what you do, and uou got lots of that.

I would say, however, that rather than trying to talk yourself into liking what you're doing when you have a very clear feeling that it is wrong for you, try to find what is right for you instead.

You clearly have a strong need to feel that you are contributing to life and society, and you clearly don't think that you do now. That's great. It's a clear sign that you're not doing what's right for you.

Make this your CMI: "I know exactly what I want to do with my life. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my work is important to many, many people, and that it improves the world. I know that I am going to leave the world a better place than I found it. I am filled with joy that I am doing what is right for me and for society." Think this many times a day and let it fill you with happiness.

Maybe, after you see that the CMI has manifested, you won't have changed jobs after all -- you will have truly come to realize that stock trading IS all of that. Or maybe you will have changed jobs. But don't try to figure out HOW it might happen ahead of time.

Hi Swingmaster,

I have to agree with mdn in that passing your skills on to others where financial market knowledge is concerned is helping others to become financially prosperous as you are. I also would love to trade online from home so that I can stay home with my newborn daughter instead of placing her in a daycare and spend my whole day stressing out not knowing if she was OK or not. You can certainly help others to be independent of the usual 9 to 5 grind so that they can spend more time with the ones they love.

Be greatful you have a knack for generating money that allows you the freedom of time. Charge for or share your knowledge knowing that you are giving as well as receiving. Don't buy into the "zero-sum" idea. We're all creatures of free will and we prosper or suffer from our decisions.

Who knows, you might get that feeling back you once had trading the markets when it was exciting for you.

Prost!

Peteymenno

Hi swingmaster,

I am *seriously* scratching my head in confusion regarding your view regarding trading in the markets: "they not only don't give value to anyone, they take away from people."

I fail to see how the stock market is a "zero-sum game" in the overall scheme of things.

If it were not for people willing to put captial at risk in hopes of making a profit the very computer you typed this message and the internet technology that enabled you to post it so that we could all read and reply instantly...simply would not be possible. The likes of Microsoft, Dell, Cisco, et al simply would not have been in a position to fund their respective developments without going to the markets for the money required to bring their products and services to market.

If it were not for the markets operating as they do with traders willing to take risks, the USA and countless other countries would be reduced to 3rd world status.

True some people lose money (I've lost my share, as I am sure you have also) but that is what risk is about. Again, the markets are not a zero-sum game. Over time buying/selling via the markets has been responsible for more wealth creation for all....in more ways than one.

I hope you rethink this. Be proud of what you do. Can you imagine what would happen to the economies of countries like the USA, the UK, Japan, etc if everyone who traded were to suddenly pull out?? I shudder at the thought.

Michael M.

Greetings Fellow Trader,
Ditch the guilt trip, you are contributing even though you are not aware of it. It's great your making money on the market, after all, that is the aim, However, consider this. You make more than you lose because you have a trading plan and stick to it. You manage your loses. Everyone has loses and those who manage their loses survive. So when you make a loss, you are making a donation back to the market. Now you are a philanthropist. Our mate Wally speaks in his own way about tithing. He also says "...that you make the most of yourself, and for others. And you can help others more by making the most of yourself than in any other way." " ....You must get rid of the thought of competion. You are to create, not to compete for what is already created." Remember this,We live in an abundant universe. Money is an energy that flows. Perhaps you would like to pass your succesful trading knowledge onto others, that may help you feel like you are giving something back. I hope my input was helpful and happy trading. Regards Money_spider

Not an ANSWER to your question, but DEFINITELY related:

Click here for an OLD forum post.

When someone loses money in the markets, why does it happen? It is a manifestation -- the result of that person's THINKING. Nothing more. No exceptions.

I'm just guessing you must love what you do -- since you are successful. If that love is truly coming from your heart. Everything we encounter, everyone we encounter, every skill or talent we have -- all are directing our purpose. Please embrace it all.

Hi Swingmaster,

Welcome to the forum! Just wanted to add a couple of thoughts:

quote:

Originally posted by swingmaster:
I'm not a business person and have no desire to start a business.

Congratulations on being very clear on what you don't wish to do. While this is not yet focusing on what you do want, there is value in knowing specifically what is not the best use of your talents and skills. Less likely to chase someone else's dreams.

quote:

My skills are the markets...

Skills, yes. Is this also your passion? How would you feel about trading if it was guilt free? What if it brought you mental clarity, spiritual peace, zest for living, and deep emotional satisfaction?

quote:

The market is simply a battle between the bulls and bears.

A very widely assumed view of the financial markets but it never made sense to me. It's really just a very large group of indiviuals, each with an opinion expressed in dollars (or any other currency.) Opinions expressed consist of buy/sell/stand aside. The markets are very democratic keeping a running total of all opinions expressed in real time. The market either confirms or rejects my opinion.

In fact, this is all the market can do. Those who persist in viewing it as a battle will get a battle, complete with all the competition and strife that mindset brings. Those who view the market as gambling will get a rush with every dollar "bet" -- win, loose or draw. Those who wish to play the role of victim achieve success every day as reported in the business section.

Be careful what you want from the market. In SOGR terms, be careful what you focus on.

quote:

...I've thought of ...maybe using my money to help those in poverty.

A commendable and noble thought. The difficult part is actually helping rather than harming in the process. Handouts may offer momentary respite but seldom encourage the recipient to better him or herself. Most often handouts perpetuate and prolong the need for handouts.

Handups require the recipient to better him or herself. The best way to help those in poverty is to help them get out of poverty by focusing on something better. One of the most widely known organizations doing this kind of work is Habitat For Humanity. There are many others.

In SOGR, Mr. Wattles says not to make a study of poverty. Focus on lack, and that's what you get. Focus on poverty, and more folks need help. Focus on empowering low-income families to build their own home, and those families not only move into a home they own but also move beyond the label of 'poverty.'

Just like the market, it's all in how you choose to view it. What you focus on, expands.

So, what do you choose as a focus?